Commission Impossible

Lon,

CGC's FPPC forms are filed in BOTH Butte County at the Butte County Elections Office and in Sacramento. Unfortunately, you can't review the forms online, but a quick trip to Oroville will verify this.

If you honestly don't believe there is a group behind CGC, then call or email me.

I'll show you the database and we'll go visit w/ folks who live next to the greenline who have spent 2 years actively following this issue and more than a decade watching it. you can ask them if this is a fake organization.

After that, we'll review comments made by elected officials over the past few years who have openly talked about moving the greenline. And I'll show you my notes from two meetings held in the past two years - one at the Grange Hall and one at the Masonic Center - that dealt specifically w/ the Greenline and had more than 200 attendees.

then, we'll review the northwest chico specific plan which dead-ends infrastructure to the greenline, anticipating some future change.

then, we'll spend some time pouring over maps of property west of the greenline to see which properties are owned by farmers, which properties are owned by investors and which properties are under option.

i feel confident that after this discussion, you might have a better sense of why some pepole are concerned about potential change to the greenline.

frankly, i'm not sure if you're even really serious about your comments above or are simply speaking for others who do support changing the greenline.

i believe this is an issue and I'm willing to spend my time, energy and resources to engage on this issue.

Again, if you are interested in real dialogue, feel free to contact me.

Tovey

Hey Tovey,

I'm sorry, I just don't believe you. And I don't speak for anyone but myself.

You have an organization with databases, meeting notes, held 2 big meetings, and have "involved" people concerned about the greenline? Yet only you and Mary Anne Houx have contributed to it. That just doesn't add up.

People have checked for the FPPC filings in Oroville and were not able to find them.

Didn't Maureen vote for that infrastructure abutting the greenline in the Northwest Specific Plan?

Lon,

With all due respect, whether or not you believe me has nothing to do with the greenline issue.

The only important question is: Is the Greenline at risk?

If the answer is Yes, then it's reasonable to assume that there may be a group of folks who are concerned about the issue.

If the answer is No, then I think some of your criticism might be more valid.

Again, I'm not asking you to take my word for it. Go talk to greenline neighbors and farmers. Look at maps. Look at what elected officials have said about the greenline over the past few years. Review the Chico NW Specific Plan, etc, etc.

Don't believe me - do your own research. But answer the question: Is the Greenline at risk?

Tovey,

The problem I have with your Chico Greenline Coalition has nothing to do with the “greenline issue�.

The way your organization surfaced in our community, as an extension of Maureen Kirk’s campaign, while representing yourself as a grass roots group is false. You have no contributors beyond yourself and Houx. You did not use local printers, you did not file locally, and you used Sacramento based political connections.

Below are two links from Google Cache that show you were developing the greenline coalition and Maureen Kirk web sites concurrently under the domain www.giezentanner.com.

Kirk Web Site Ballot Statement Google Cache April 29th 2006
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:dV4XkJJNhKUJ:www.giezentanner.com/b
Greenline Coalition Google Cache May 2nd 2006:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:qVagMLaZ2G8J:www.giezentanner.com/g

To me this shows that the two web sites were part of an overarching and linked campaign plan, and not as part of a separate group that jumped into the fray over concern for the greenline. This is the kind of work done by a political consultant and not a concerned community member.

Additionally, you formed the greenline coalition as a “primarily formed committee� which by definition supports the election of a specific candidate. Had you formed an “independent expenditure committee� that would have at least been an indicator that the “issue� was more important than the “candidate�.

Finally, you were personally responsible for 25% of Kirk’s campaign funding. That’s the largest contribution to a single candidate in this election cycle, in fact it’s more than some Council candidates will raise. And we can’t trace that it actually came from your child’s college fund, or know if you might be compensated for that money through one of your Sacramento contacts or some future payment.

But beyond all of those things, I’m willing to say “Tovey really is concerned about the Chico greenline, and that’s why he’s involved, and dropped so much money into Kirk’s campaign.�

I am not willing to say “The Chico Greenline Coalition is a grass roots movement that came to naturally support Maureen Kirk because she supports the greenline.� I think that is not true. And I think the Chico Greenline Coalition was created to make people believe it was a grass roots group.

Lon

Tovey got a seat on the Butte County General Plan update committee only because Houx absolutely insisted that he get one.

After reading Andy Bruckman's letter, I wonder if it is just a good investment on the part of tovey’s employers to spend $10k to own a seat on the Butte County General Plan?

Has anyone pointed out to Tovey, and the people he works with, that Kirk is a Democrat? He seems to be tied to Republicans, which would suggest he's an alright guy, but he's helping a democrat.

No matter how nice Kirk may seem, she refuses to renounce a party that has betrayed this country countless times for the last five years since 9/11. She does not deserve the support of Republicans.

Bertagna is also no enemy of the Greenline. He simply failed to properly kiss Houx's dusty old ring. Now that Keene and LaMalfa, along with the local Republican party have endorsed Bertagna, I have a feeling he will win in what is a Republican majority district. Giezentanner may want to make nice before that comes to pass.

Just my humble point of view.

Dane Langston

I'm not one to base trust or friendship on party affiliation. I think that can limit your access to good ideas and very nice people. It's my opinion that the state-level Republican connections Tovey has as a political consultant were not "behind" this particular job. I could be wrong. But state-level party support from the Republican side didn't seem to show up for Bertagna until after the runoff. I don't think anyone was really paying too much attention to this contest previously.

The Greenline Coalition helped to trigger the new attention the supervisor race is receiving from political parties. The whole Houx, Dolan, Kirk connection seems more based on personal affection than party loyalty.

But even statements from Tovey muddy the waters over why the Chico Greenline Coalition came to be. These quotes from the ER article...

"Mary Anne has been a close political mentor since the early '90s. I've been friends with her for a long time. She was at my wedding."

Giezentanner said Houx asked him to enter into the race in support of Kirk."

So was it formed because of fear for the future of the greenline or loyalty to a mentor? I'll go back to what I think the evidence points to. The Chico Greenline Coalition was formed and funded to create an issue for the Kirk campaign.

This seems to have backfired. The ER article is pretty strong evidence that the Greenline Coaltion itself has become a news item. And not one that is particularly flattering to the Kirk campaign.

Lon

I have always viewed a sensible ag buffer a huge accomplishment for our region, particularly how and where growth should be accomodated in Chico. The Greenline, when initially formed, acknowledged its own imperfections, and allowed for subsequent refinement based on a sensible urban plan which directed much of the town's development eastward. But it seems that the sensibilities have changed.

Anyone with a basic grasp of real estate understands that support for East side development directly reduces the economic pressure leading to conversion of prime ag land... So it's understandable that many of us saw (in Bidwell Ranch) and continue to see (Fogarty etc..) the Council majority's actions to reduce Chico's urban reserve as a threat to Ag preservation... As predicted, we're now seeing the Council's political rationale for eliminating Bidwell Ranch "i.e. we'll simply increase densities on infill development" start to unwind like WMD's. Who would have thunk....

I like open space, but, like all things, it needs to be planned and paid for.... and it's implications (like pressure on Ag Land's) needs to be considered before decisions are made.. not afterwards.

I do not believe Chico's Council majority understood then or understands now the relationship between their landmark reductions to our urban reserve, and the threat such decisions place on the greenline, affordability, traffic and other things of critical importance.

Sound community planning requires more than election year campaign promises... We saw that last election.... where most significant and the most costly land use decision in Chico's history got pushed through by a narrowly elected majority without proper environmental or fiscal analysis, and no vote of the people. But hey... it was a capmaign promise.

Sensible policies which can refine and strengthen Ag preservation are too complex to be simplified into political soundbites, and too important to be used as a wedge issue between candiates who share both voting record's and a comittment to preserving Ag Land.

Sound leadership requires an open mind, a preference for and the capacity to study the issue before promising anything to political supporters.

I've seen those qualities in Steve Bertagna.

Having had the chance to chat with Tovey this morning, I'm persuaded that he's sincere in his concern for the greenline and his belief that it is at grave risk. I am not persuaded that it is, in fact, at risk, nor that there is any great advantage in pursuing policies to preserve it precisely as is, but I'm content that his commitment to this cause is not simply a cynical ploy to get Maureen Kirk elected in the Third.

My overall sense of it is that this is a one-issue passion, and it's seems more than a little paranoid, frankly, to suppose that a minor tweaking of the specific layout of the greenline is the camel's nose under the tent, leading to a slippery slope unraveling a thread of tiresome metaphors. I'm also puzzled as to why Tovey is convinced that the best strategy for defending the greenline is to seat Kirk in the Third. Far better, I should think, would be to use the money (it is rather a lot of cash) to educate, advocate, and motivate grass-roots support.

My problem has always been the representation that the Greenline Coalition was a grass-roots group that pre-existed the Supervisor campaign.

This paragraph exists in the endorsement of Maureen Kirk by the Greenline Coalition (this is from Kirk's web site).

In 2004, a group of neighbors formed the Chico Greenline Coalition to help protect Chico’s
prime agricultural land by encouraging “smart growth� in areas with non-prime agricultural
soil. The Chico Greenline Coalition looks forward to helping you in your bid for Supervisor
and we wish you all success in your campaign.

This endorsement leads you to believe there is a group of neighbors that are a long term (2 years) organization.

Yet the Greenline Coalition website didn't exist until it was about to file as an FPPC governed committee supporting Kirk's election. And those neighbors never stepped up and committed funds to their beloved Greenline Coalition after they happily endorsed Kirk.

Hi Lon,

Althought the domain name "was" registered in 2004, it appears the website did not go active until around May 8th, of this year. This is indicated by the domain record update at that time, which would be required to change the DNS servers from the default settngs assigned by Cheap-DomainRegistrations.com to get the web hosting company, Interland, linked to this domain name.

Here is the actual domain name record for www.chicogreenline.com

Registrant:
Tovey Giezentanner
P.O. Box 3524
Chico, California 95927
United States

Registered through: Cheap-DomainRegistrations.com
Domain Name: CHICOGREENLINE.COM
Created on: 15-Aug-04
Expires on: 15-Aug-08
Last Updated on: 08-May-06

Domain servers in listed order:
A.NS.INTERLAND.NET
B.NS.INTERLAND.NET
C.NS.INTERLAND.NET

How does that line up with the filing date at FPPC?

Oh, I agree that the CGC is essentially a one-man-band. But I don't think that fact necessarily disqualifes the assumptions underlying the single-issue agenda; objective analysis of the issue, however, does. In the absence of any sort of meaningful attempt to do violence to either the letter or spirit of the greenline, using it as the fulcrum for a supervisorial political campaign is as disingenuous as the claim that it represents a constituency beyond its founder-funder.

New Page 1

Alan, I enjoyed our discussion yesterday morning and look forward to working w/ you on this and other issues in the future.

Lon,  I enjoyed meeting you, too.  Clearly you are not convinced that CGC was an organized group (however loosely) prior to the 2006 Primary Election.  And I'm not sure I'm going to be able to convince you otherwise. 

However, I would point you to two things:

1.  Here's an op-ed that I wrote re: the Greenline titled, "How to protect prime ag land?   Build more houses."  I wrote this in January 2005 for the February 2005 Chico ER Outlook section.  You'll note that this op-ed mentions "a group of neighbors..."  So, please concede that someone was at least thinking about the Greenline pre-April 2006.

2.  Prior to the website you now see at www.chicogreenline.com, we had an earlier version of the website which can be accessed at www.archive.org.  Type in www.chicogreenline.com in the box in the middle of the top and click on the button, "take me back."  You'll find archived on this site previous iterations of the site from early 2005.

Even if you are still unconvinced, the question still remains:  Is the Greenline at risk?

Tovey

Hey Tovey,

I don’t think I ever refuted that you held meetings, had a database of interested parties, etc. That would definitely constitute “loosely organized�. The fact that there was a web site URL purchased in 2004 and a web site in 2005 does lend credibility to your message that the Chico greenline interests you (or somebody you work for).

My problem is with the conversion of your interest into a polished and coordinated campaign effort presented as a grass roots group that naturally supports Maureen Kirk. When you undertook the design of Kirk’s web site and concurrently revamped the unused Chico Greenline Coalition web site, and poured $10K+ into Kirk’s campaign you did so under the premise that a group of neighbors of the greenline got together to protect it by backing Maureen Kirk (a group of neighbors that got together in 2004).

Apparently that group of neighbors was willing to let you do all of the work, and foot the entire bill, and sign the endorsement letter. And you are not a neighbor of the greenline. What exactly did the neighbors do?

Do I believe the greenline is at risk?
I believe that Maureen Kirk voted to allow infrastructure in Chico’s Northwest Specific Plan that some would say breaks, or may be used later to break, the greenline. Other Council members did as well. I believe that high density infill near the greenline, and a reduction in availability of land away from the greenline, increases the pressure to build over the greenline. Those policies have been championed by our more “progressive� council members. So I don't believe that the greenline is more or less at risk with Kirk or Bertagna as supervisor.

Now some questions for you:
Who are your members?
Why haven’t they contributed money to the Chico Greenline Coalition?
If you support Kirk because of the greenline, who do you support for Chico City Council?
How do those you support for City Council differ from Steve Bertagna in their voting record in relation to the Greenline?
Why did you file at the state level and use Sacramento based legal and PR firms in this endeavor?

Lon

Hey Lon,

Re: questions 1 and 2 – Thanks to you, I've been sufficiently (and unfairly!) chastised.  Believe me, I will respond to these two questions.  Stay tuned...

Re: questions 3 and 4 - CGC hasn't taken a position on candidates for city council races.  The reason I pushed for taking a position in the Supervisor's race is pretty well outlined in the CER article from last Thursday.

Question 5:  I’m glad you asked this question and I hope this answer will forever close the debate on this issue:  CGC’s Statement of Organization (Form 410) was filed with the Secretary of State's office (they assign the committee's ID number) and at the County Registrar of Voters for Butte County (where the committee is domiciled and active).  All subsequent campaign reports have been filed in Butte County only.  "County" committees (committees active within a single county only) are not required to file disclosure reports (Forms 460, 496, 497, 465) with the Secretary of State.  The instructions on the forms explain where the forms should be filed, depending on the type of committee.  Any member of the public can inspect or obtain copies of the campaign reports filed with the local filing officer.

re: legal and pr firms - because that's who I'm most familiar with.  Bell, McAndrews and Hiltachk is one of the top 3 or 4 firms in the state for political legal work.  Knowing that this issue, my involvement and this organization might at some point generate scrutiny, I wanted to make sure that CGC organized correctly and that it files all of its reports on time and as required by law.  There are probably local firm(s) that could do the same thing, but BMH is a top firm and I've worked w/ them often on a number of projects.  I should also point out that BMH does work for republicans and democrats.

re: PR - In this case, they are simply vendors.  Cardinal Communications (a subsidiary of Meridian Pacific) does paid phone calls; that’s their involvement.  I've also used other vendors as outlined in my campaign reports.  Same thing - they do mail, or radio, or paid phone calls.   I'll note that this process has introduced me to several local vendors who can do graphics, mail, radio, etc., so I imagine at some point I will end up using local vendors as much as possible. 

One more point: local vendors sometimes prefer to only do work for one political party or its candidates.  But that has not been my experience at the state level where firms typically do work for both republicans and democrats.

Now back to my question which was left unanswered.  You compared the two candidates on the issue, but you haven't answered the core question:  Is the greenline at risk?  For the purpose of answering this question, please don't compare Kirk w/ Bertagna or bring anyone else into it.  The question is, simply:  Is the Greenline at risk?  Yes or No.  You may be tempted to remove yourself from this box by finding a 3rd answer, like “who cares?â€? 

Well, I care.  And I know a number of neighbors who live next to the greenline care.  And I know that a lot of farmers in Butte County care.  And I think I know that a whole lot of people in Chico care.  According to campaign literature and recent public comments, both candidates for supervisor have now addressed the greenline issue and every candidate for city council has addressed this issue, so it appears they care, too.

In the end, it’s a yes or no answer.  Is the Greenline at risk?

Tovey

Is the Greenline at risk?

In a word, no. I am not persuaded that there is any meaningful impetus or momentum from any quarter to eradicate the greenline. There is some discussion about making a few minor tweaks to correct some parts of it, but no one is seriously proposing eliminating it or moving it substantially west of its current position.

I personally believe that the greenline as it is currently constituted makes infill development on the old Diamond Match parcel problematic, but not irresolubly so.

With the possible exception of some ag owners on the boundary who might be tempted to sell to developers, I don't think there is anyone who wants to move the greenline. I don't believe any developers have taken any significant positions west of the greenline, and I doubt if you could get any of them to take one.

So no, while I do not doubt that Tovey is convinced that the greenline is at risk, I do not see any evidence that it is. Paranoia is a disorder, and spreading it to others is not an effective therapy.

Tovey,

I’m a little confused by your tactic to make me answer a complex question with a ‘yes’ or ‘no’. This is a free country, and an open discussion, and I think my previous answer as to the risk to the greenline posed by today’s political climate is adequate.

I’m further perplexed that after contributing $12,000 to frame the greenline question as a Kirk versus Bertagna piece, you now ask me not to discuss it in that context. Wasn’t that why you spent the money?

I’ll go back to my core problem with the Chico Greenline Coalition. It was represented as a grass roots group that naturally supported Kirk over Bertagna. You wrote the endorsement letter, built the Kirk and Greenline Coalition web sites, and funded the entire operation. You used your personal contacts as a political consultant to create campaign media material.

You are the largest single contributor in this election cycle.

I’m sorry if you feel like you’ve been unfairly chastised by me. I really do look forward to all of your Chico Greenline Coalition members coming forward. I will ask them to answer a few questions as well.

There were some folks that wrote a letter-to-the-editor as members of the Chico Greenline Coalition. There is one person that accepted your money and endorsement. They could post here and answer the questions right now.

Lon

Alan,

I think that adjustments (minor) to the greenline should be made for specific projects deemed necessary or in areas where the line made historic sense, but no longer fits the community’s needs. Otherwise, as a development boundary it should be maintained.

The greenline should not be Chico’s abortion or gun control debate. It doesn’t have to be black and white. There’s too much hysteria over land use in Chico, and it has filtered its way down to cell-phone towers being literally banned by a few vocal obstructionists. Personally, I’m tired of the nonsense.

The biggest issue in this election cycle is the $40-$50million dollar budget deficit. Hearing the “progressive� candidates brush it off as only a “projected� deficit and not a topic worthy of discussion is pretty disheartening.

I think I’ll start the Chico Budget Deficit Coalition. Maybe there’s someone around that could loan me $10K to get this issue front and center.

Lon

Lon,

Well, we've reached an impasse. You won't respond to my simple question and I disagree w/ you how you've characterized the CGC.

You are right about one thing. It is a free country and we can all get involved (or not) in issues of our choosing.

Thanks for the duscussion.

Tovey

Why doesn't somebody just put an end to this circular babble by going up to Oroville and checking with the clerk? They won't tell you on the phone. I will ask my friend if she can drop in on her way home from work. When she checked last June, they weren't there and the clerk had never heard of them. Another friend of mine told me Tovey's number indicates he filed in Sacramento. So, a quick trip to Oroville is all it takes to catch a liar by the tail. My dog finally died this morning, so I am free to do what I want. Maybe I will just do it myself. I'll get back to you.

Yes, I called - the reports are there now, filed pretty recently. So, I will ask my friend to pick them up on the way home from work, or I'll get them myself, and we'll see.

We've already seen the expenditures pages, so I feel Tovey, as well as Maureen, has not been honest with us about all his contributors, especially the really big ones. That's why my husband and I wrote letters to the paper, we want Maureen to come clean. If the truth is not so bad, why all the greenline spin?

And no, I don't believe his story about genuine concern - look, he's such a pro, he's had you guys running rabbits around the greenline for a week. Meanwhile, other more pressing issues go unchecked in this election - like his sudden appointment, having moved from Davis within the last year, to the county general plan update committee.

I don't see Kirk or Bertagna discussing any real issues in either of their campaigns, just the usual vague buzzwords and catchphrases. A real discussion would include specific points from the general plan review. And how about that last Grand Jury report - again with the women's jail? And have they both forgotten - they're running for Butte County supervisor, not Chico County Supervisor.

Well, I'll get back to you when I get those reports.

Juanita,

I've kind of enjoyed running rabbits around the greenline topic this last week. It's one of the reasons I haven't posted anything new.

I don't think Tovey lied about much of anything, but did intentionally misrepresent the Chico Greenline Coalition as a grass roots group. I'm sure some people would call that a lie. I think it was more a stretching of the truth to fill in a political strategy.

I could be wrong about that, but it would just be by degrees. The evidence is accurate that when the Greenline Coalition supported Kirk's campaign it was a one man show.

Lon

Tovey,

Although I am sure your intentions are true to the long term existence of the sacred Greenline, it is important to mention that founding reason for the CGC’s creation was due to a family member of yours who, lives in the Bell Muir area and as I believe you put it, “doesn’t want to have more neighbors�. This is still all very much a valid reason to start an effort like this however, the fact that we are all lead to believe that the broad scope of the Greenline's savior is your only intention is false. The Greeline Coalition was created by you for NIMBYistic reasons to serve your family. NOT a wide spectrum of concerned individuals as you claim.

Jason

I saw the Greenline Coalition when it first went up prior to the revamp. At that time it and the meetings were organized out of Jane Dolan's office. Dolan has since slithered off into the background but at the time her staffer [a Chico planning commissioner] had to recuze herself from a related issue do to her participation in the Greenline Coalition.

Hey pypr,

would that be the same group of folks that Dolan and DiGiovanni riled up over the Sterling apartments? Was Tovey involved in that ugly scheme as well?

That was weird - Dolan rounded up a mob of her Nord Ave "neighbors" and ran a campaign against student housing. There she was, a woman who liked to yak about her political involvement as a Chico State student, telling us that Chico State students were bad for neighborhoods. Then when DG bought the same property for a high density development, Dolan appeared at his charettes and lobbied the neighbors to accept his plans. When Sterling was the wolf at the door, Dolan said the neighbors had rights, but when people still protested DG's plans, they were told that "development is inevitable."

That's another reason I don't want Mo Kirk at the county level - she's going to have her finger in Dolan's belt loop. Dolan started the CGC, hired an operative out of Sacramento to run it, now she's using it to get Kirk in there. Then they'll go after Josiasson's seat - it will be interesting to see who they will come up with to fill that spot. I'd say, anybody foot-loose and fancy-free enough to move to that little corner of Chico. An ambitious person, somebody who wants to ride Mul-Dolan's power train to the assembly. I'm guessing Gruendl, but that's just my compulsive paranoia talking again.

Juanita wrote:"Then they'll go after Josiasson's seat - it will be interesting to see who they will come up with to fill that spot. I'd say, anybody foot-loose and fancy-free enough to move to that little corner of Chico. An ambitious person, somebody who wants to ride Mul-Dolan's power train to the assembly. I'm guessing Gruendl, but that's just my compulsive paranoia talking again."

Gruendl cannot win the 4th. It has to be a registered Republican. The anointed RINO to replace Curt in the 4th is Tod Kimmelshue. Camelshoes is also the white bread liberal republican hope for an Assembly seat.