so, will we eventually have no need for change in the new automated world? Well, they do have some pretty boss vending machines down at Raley's, I like the aliens.

well, back outside, it's kind of neat to work in the rain, sun, rain, sun...gullywasher!

Some of my favorites are the ones at Aca Taco. They used to have the aliens, then they had these little rubber animals. And for a quarter you can pick up a skull ring (if you;re lucky). Very goth.

Lon

I remember a few years ago, I saw a huge metal container full of the old mechanical parking meter heads out at the scrap yard by Pentz Rd. At the time, I tried to think of a fun art project to use them for, but I guess they all got melted down.

Now I wish I had them for the disc golf courses for fund raising. Pay to play. Whack a meter with your disc and drop a quarter in it. Move on to the next hole. If you bogie, it takes fifty cents. If you get a birdie, it's free.

Keep the change fed parking meters, add dispensers for prizes or hard candy treats. Promote it as "Downtown Chico, Parking and a Prize!"

If anyone is interested, here is a recent article about the same meters in SFO.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2009/06/03/BA8V17USEA.DTL

From the article:
"Here's how the program will work: The city will set parking prices at curbside meters and in city lots based on anticipated demand. When and where demand is expected to be high, the price will be raised; when demand is low, the price will be dropped.
Officials seek to almost always have at least one spot on a block available at any given time so drivers don't have to keep cruising for parking.
In some areas, where few metered parking spaces fill up, the time limits will be extended."

So if merchants still want to park directly in front of their stores, they will have to pay the going market rate for it.

I want to know how you know what the rate is while you are still looking for a space. If you don't have a computer or cell phone, can you still shop for cheaper parking or do you have to get out of the car to find out.

This could be a good solution to Chico's temporal parking problem when students are in town. Cheaper parking in summer for locals only then raised when students return to discourage heavy impact in downtown merchant zone.

I am not sure about dispensing prizes, but I like the idea of coupons for downtown merchants on the back of the receipt, like the grocery store receipts.

What do you think they are going to do with the old meters? I would love to randomly stick one in front of my house just to see how many people put quarters in it.

or.... put the old meters up at your disc golf site for pay per pole.

The meters are at each tee and after paying the tone pole rises out of the ground down the fairway.

Solar powered of course so no play when course is closed for rainy season.

Whoa, TJ,

Yesterday we were both thinking about flying monkeys in Oz, and today we're both thinking about pay to play parking meter disc golf. At first I thought great minds must think alike until I remembered what it was that we were both thinking about.

"The city will set parking prices at curbside meters and in city lots based on anticipated demand."

I sat in a meeting watching Katrina Davis try to make this sound good to a lady who says she drives in regularly from Gridley to shop here. The lady just looked at Davis like she was one brick shy of a load.

This is the same way they price healthcare and food, why not parking places? I personally think it's evil to price based on demand, but you know, that's just me. That would be like my husband charging an old person more money to put a floor in, because they are less able to do it themselves. Or more to yuppies, cause they are more able to pay. He never did that, his price was based on his actual expenses - what a sucker, eh? Maybe that's why we can't afford to go Downtown anymore.

Someday, I'll open a daycare center, prices based on demand. "Oh, I know it was $2.50/hr when you came in this morning, but I had a little run, so at 11:30 it became $5 an hour." I could call them at work, at their job in Vacaville: "in five minutes demand dictates that I will be charging $6/hr for your kid - do you want to come and get him?"

Who the hell gets away with this kind of business? I'll tell you who - PG&E, cause they're going to do the same thing to your power meter. They say it's voluntary, but an article I read online says it will be mandatory within 5 years. Can't you see yourselves, circling your house with a load of stinking socks, trying to decide if you can afford to run your washing machine?

Greed is a powerful motivator, but I don't think the new meters are just about greed - certain people Downtown just want to be all modern and groovy looking. Consultants and other people from big cities come here and make snotty remarks, and snicker, and the next thing you know, we've got Smart Meters!

I think an adjustable meter rate is a great concept. Like many things there will be issues with implementation. For example, while we might expect local government to efficiently and successfully manipulate the meter rate to the benefit of downtown economics. That may not be the outcome.

There will be social and/or political concerns that will likely be the driving force behind major decision making. For example, it might make sense to increase rates around the Saturday farmer's market to better distribute weekend parking across other downtown areas. In all likelyhood the opposite would happen with free or reduced parking rates occurring there.

There may be free or reduced rate areas for electric vehicles and hybrids. That would tend to exclude the poor.

On the concept of medical care and electricity being demand driven, there is some reality to this (HMO's utility rate schedules). But in general they are regulated commodoties. That means the government may subsidize them to ensure a minimum level of access exists for everyone.

In my opinion delivery of these services are always inefficient and bound by bureacratic chains that prevent innovation. The trade off is that they are available in some form to everyone. Again, with the government involvement comes the leash that restricts you to the government's will.

True supply and demand would be exemplified by something like the computer industry. Demand went up, price went up, supply went up, price went down. But imagine if the govenrment decided that everyone should have a virus free, internet enabled, computer. Sounds good... some people could even argue this a basic right in the information age. As soon as someone somewhere is given a subsidized computer, someone somewhere else has to pay for that.

For me, smart meters for the home or the car parking lot are as sensible as wireless phones. But I'll admit to some concerns over "big-brother" in the "big-picture".

Lon

Juanita,

I don't think your husband is a sucker. Maybe he is just a victim of the open marketplace just like the rest of us.

If he told me that he was charging a higher price based on my age and ability, I would go find another contractor that wanted the work bad enough to give a better price. I do it almost everyday.

Contractors do charge more to yuppies who "look" like they can pay more. We all do it. That is part of the open marketplace too. Charge what you think you can get away with. The concept of self-interest is what drives our economic system and makes it unique from many others.

There is a relatively unlimited number of contractors and day-care centers to choose from. But parking is a limited resource that we give away to all users (regardless of their use) for the same price. There is little consideration by the merchant or their employees as to where they park and the impact their parking has on others. Some park directly in front of their store and take it away from customers (and old people), and hope that their loyal customers will take up parking in front of their neighbors store and impact them instead.

Not all merchants are that way. Many are smarter and buy a space on the top floor of the parking structure. The parking structure is also another limited resource however and it usually has a waiting list.

The money from the meters goes into a separate fund for downtown improvements. It doesn't go to the DCBA or into the General Fund. It gets returned back to serve the customers, merchants and everyone that promotes or uses the downtown in the form of cleaner streets, better signage, security, etc.

We used to take the meter money to pay off the existing parking structure bond. That is going to be paid off in another month, and we should see more money being allocated to downtown improvements in the coming years.

The intention is not to make money from the meters as much as it is about providing better services that will attract more people to the downtown and better represent the local culture from what is apparent now. And from what is turning away the real locals who haven't been downtown in years because, they say, "it is dirty, has no police presence and has parking difficulties." (parking = safe, convenient and having plenty of quarters)

Don't forget that the meters also go down in price at different times of the day. What kind of money making venture would do that with a limited resource like parking if they weren't really focused on the merchants and providing for their customers?

Whether or not the locals will find the meters too confusing to use is an interesting question. I am sure there will be a learning curve, but whether the community wants to learn, can tolerate a curve, or is just looking for a reason to criticize new-fangled big-city ideas, I am not so sure of.

I think it is going to help the local dating scene by hanging out near the smart meter dispensers helping out the local hotties with their parking confusion.

I think it is going to help the local dating scene by hanging out near the smart meter dispensers helping out the local hotties with their parking confusion.

I recommend only pooling genes with the ones that can figure it out on their own. Brains are excellent spousal attributes. You don't want to be like my wife who married me because of my stunningly good looks and now has to tie my shoes for me.

Lon

Lon,

You know I was being facetious about the "dating scene" comment, but there really is an opportunity for locals to show their good nature. I see acts of kindness and generosity by locals downtown all the time. This just seems like another chance for locals to show off their character.

This could be a really good opportunity to interface with more people in and from outside of the community. I always feel more welcome when I travel and some local person gives me direction and advice. And, when I return home I always remember that nice person that helped me out when I was lost for years to come, and I share that with other people who ask me about my trip.

I immediately feel secure because I feel like I already know someone in that town who is watching out for me. That comfort level makes it easier for me to take out my wallet and buy something from them.

There is also an opportunity for merchants to refund back the price difference of parking costs in the form or coupons or even cash. I have talked to several merchants who already occasionally toss $.50 to favorite customers to alleviate their contempt for downtown parking.

Pretty hard to forget a gesture like that even though it won't even buy you a cup of coffee anymore. Walking away from a business with something that I didn't have before and that I didn't expect to get for free is huge, especially when I can hear those quarters jingling in my pocket all the way home. It makes you feel like someone cares and it creates loyalty on both sides of the cash register.

To throw out all the benefits of the smart meters because we focus on the constraints rather than the opportunities is only going to hurt ourselves in the long run.

That wouldn't necessarily be out of character for this community though.

TJ,

I just wanted people to know there are downsides to being with someone as beautiful as me.

Lon

gene pool, schmeen pool, whatever dude, this is what I am talking about.

http://www.contactmusic.com/photos.nsf/main/jessica_alba_5295200

David had the best idea yet.

"successfully manipulate the meter rate to the benefit of downtown economics. That may not be the outcome."

Well, as I recall from that same meeting, the real objective of the meters and the higher parking prices is to keep certain people out of Downtown, you know, the ones that don't buy more than a cup o java or a few beers. That was discussed very plainly - they want to make the meters so expensive, only your "well-heeled" shoppers can afford the rates. That's an artificial way of propping up the economy.

I prefer the natural way. It's a business zone. The market is supposed to determine what businesses sink or swim. By giving DT merchants/business owners subsidies, you are allowing bad businesses to take up space that better businesses could be using. And it's like feeding blue-jays, they get big and nasty and start chasing all the other birds out of your yard. Birds that could bring in alot more sales taxes.

I don't really care about their economics. What bugs me is, they are trying to manipulate who goes DT - social engineering. And they're telling me, I'm going to pay for it, for my own good, whether I go DT or not.

Meanwhile, North Valley Plaza, Chico Mall, and all the little shopping centers in between are on their own, pawns of the economy. You know, the ones that are within walking distance of the neighborhoods most Chicoans live in. One of those probably yanks in more sales tax than all of DT.

But Downtown is "special." It's the "heart of our community." Unfortunately, it's a heart that beats only for those of us who can afford to go down there and pay a dollar an hour to park our cars to peruse high-end shops and eat at trendy restaurants.

"the real locals who haven't been downtown in years because, they say, "it is dirty, has no police presence and has parking difficulties."

tj, I honestly don't know who the hell you're talking about. The only people we know who go DT anymore are people that either own businesses down there or live near by. We know a mixture of people who both grew up here and those who moved here as adults. We know people like ourselves who remember when DT was a much more viable business district, with a grocery store and affordable family department stores, cafes, auto repair shops and gas stations, even doctors offices. Now those types of businesses have just disappeared, replaced with bars, chiefly.

Here's a hint: look at the list of businesses Lon just posted. How many of those will you find DT? Businesses fail because they don't keep up with the market, they don't have what people want, they are priced too high. Propping them up with tax money is communism, and bad business.

You say, my husband has to swing with the market, but DT businesses need and deserve my taxes?

here, watch the first few minutes of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV1yHrqXA88

I don't understand where taxes or subsidies came into the conversation?

If you want to study good examples of social engineering, you go to the shopping mall. That is a totally controlled environment. They have their own tenant mix requirements, their own parking enforcement, their own design review, their own maintenance, and their own police force that controls who is allowed to loiter and who isn't.

I will buy you a case of beer for every panhandler you show me in a shopping mall.

I think you meant socialism rather than "communism". Both of those are fightin' words to me, that shouldn't be used interchangeably or carelessly.

My communication skills are probably more adept at searching the internet for photos of Alba. I will stick to that from now on.

You win Juanita.

Yeah! On the more Alba front.

I think social engineering would relate to government policies used to enforce or coerce a specific ideologically based behavior. Think busing, solar power, etc. Not necessarily bad, but generally tranfering something from one group of people to another to reinforce a belief system or to elicit behavioral changes.

Although it is a broad term. I'm sure it can relate to things like mall operation, which is private property.

The use of smart meters wouldn't be to keep certain people from coming downtown. It might have that effect. But it could be used to modify the cost of certain blocks so people would be more dispersed in their parking habits. That would be the theory anyway. You've got to try it to see if it works.

Allowing pay with credit cards would overcome the bucket of quarters problem.

But really, everyone should take the bus. It's fun. It's cheap. Not if you're buying furniture. But for working downtown it's pretty easy.

Lon

Re tj's "I am not sure about dispensing prizes, but I like the idea of coupons for downtown merchants on the back of the receipt, like the grocery store receipts."

OK, how about a trial of both? My bet is that there will be fist fights over who gets the Goth Skull Ring dispensing parking spots.

"I don't understand where taxes or subsidies came into the conversation?"

They spent every last dime in the parking lot fund, which took years to accrue, on the Second Street structure. When they said how much that structure would cost, and my husband and I did the math, we realized it would never pay for itself. Now, the rest of the DT parking "improvements" will have to be paid for out of tax money, RDA, the gen fund. Haven't you been listening at those meetings tj?

A few years ago, they were talking about putting a bond on my property taxes, or just flat raising sales tax, or utility tax, for the specific purpose of putting a parking structure DT. Meanwhile, they are lowering the price for a developer to come in and build new stuff DT, and lessening the requirements for developers to provide parking for their projects. So, they build and I pay, how nice for them.

Shopping malls are, as Lon points out, private property, unlike DT, which is largely public. Mall owners pay property taxes on their parking lots. I think that's ironic for them to be expected to pay a bond to put more parking DT, funny as hell. Not ha ha funny, you know, weird funny, stupid funny, malfeasance funny.

But yeah, there's plenty of panhandlers and transients at Mangrove Plaza, and last time I checked, there was a guy holding a "work for food" sign in the median in front of Toys R Us. Why don't you just go buy them a hot meal for me?

What I also notice about malls is, they're cleaner than DT. Stuff gets fixed faster at malls too. Malls have their own security staff too. While that doesn't guarantee you are any safer than on the streets of Chico, at least they pay for it themselves.

So, why doesn't the DCBA manage their mall a little better? My friends who have businesses DT are always complaining that they pay for nothing. They all hate Thursday night market.

You know, my husband's old boss has to get a permit, $350 last we heard, to have a one-day sale in her own parking lot, but the city pays the DCBA thousands of dollars a year to hold those kind of events for DT businesses, explain that one for me. All Watermelon Days and Christmas Preview and Taste of Chico amount to are giant sidewalk sales, and they get money from us for every one of those events. I think business owners around town should be hopping mad about that, but judging from the ones I know, I'm afraid most are just too busy to pay attention.

[snip Lon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

The city is scheduled to makes it's final repayment of the Downtown Parking Revenue Bond in August of this year.

That sounds to me like they're paying off the parking structure. But not knowing exactly what it means I guess it could also be that they're paying back money they borrowed from the money they borrowed for the parking structure.

Do you know TJ?

Lon

What? What, what?

I don't know who "tj" is, he/she never has used a real name, nor have they introduced themselves to me at any of the meetings which we apparently both attend. But "tj" regularly argues with me, and I argue back, and then you step in like John Astin in West Side Story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PEgR22KQJA

That is my entire understanding of the situation.

Now, MAMBO!

Juanita,

I think TJ was just expressing an opinion, not arguing. I took his comment "you win" to mean he didn't want to argue. I can't recall exactly what I snipped but I think it was a single line that I took as impolite.

I would prefer if we kept things as nice as possible when disagreeing. Personal slights take away from an argument's strength. And if people feel they're going to be attacked for disagreeing with someone then they won't post comments here.

I think people sometimes feel like you attack them when they disagree with you. I'm sure some people feel the same way about some of my responses.

Lon

I'm sorry I'm such a ass.

You know I'm from Glenn County, don't you? I was born in Willows, raised along the river near Butte City. You know, Butte City used to be called Gouge Eye. Back in the 1850's, these two guys got into a knock-down-drag-out on Main Street. It went down the street a ways, one of those scenes right out of Paint Your Wagon. Finally, one guy took ahold of the other guy by the face and tried to Gouge his Eyes out, hence the name. The second guy bit his thumbs off.

Now, that's an attack. What I do, is an argument. Some people just can't stand being disagreed with.