POST SCRIPTS

Jack...come on. The "little guy", the "have nots" this is not reasonable debate, this is emotion based politics. If what your saying is the Republicans need to (as Franklin put it) "...appeal to intrest instead of reason.", than I agree that would be far more politically expedient. But if you are suggesting that the government needs to get in and regulate oil prices pr interfere more in the free market I cant possibly disagree more.

Im sorry but I am sooo tired of hearing about all of these have nots, every poll they seem to conduct says that people are worried about the economy, but are satisfied with their own circumstances, which tells me that in large part we are hearing a grea deal about a bad economy, but apparently not feeling it as much as we hear about it. The stock market is doing fairly well considering terrorism, natural disasters, war etc. The housing market didnt burst like all the doom and gloomers were predicting, mainly because real estate is a regional market more than a national one.

As far as outsourcing, Im all for it. The have nots have more opportunities here to excel than anywhere in the world, and this idea that Americans are "entitled" to a living or any other kind of wage is ubsurd and dangerous, bottom line, Im tired of people blaming everything and everyone except themselves. I just talked to an Iranian immigrant the other day who has come over here, worked his way through college, is serving in the military and working on his masters degree. He does not understand how people born here are not making it. Well Ill tell you the problem, government handouts and a lowering of standards in primary and high school education. Not increasing oil revenues. Please show me a european country that pays less for oil or has a stronger unemployment rate with their government regulations and interference. To compare taxes and raising oil prices is not intellectually honest. The government raises your taxes to spend it on whatever they feel like at the time, and you pay them whether you like it or not, You can choose to pay less in gas, by buying a more fuel efficent car, or taking the bus, or putting on a sweater rather than raising teh thermostat. In short, the free market gives you ptions on how to spend your money, the government just takes it. So to compare it to a defacto tax hike is unfair.

Oil companies dont get to charge more than people are willing to pay...period. Yes the economy cant run without oil, but whos fault is that? This increase in gas prices is a blessing in disguise. For the first time in a long time private money is going to flow into alternative fuel sources and fuel efficency. As a result the United states will beat everyone else to the punch with transitioning from an oil based economy, which is exactly what we want. These transistions mean pain, and it means pain for those with the least money and education...so what else is new.

Lets not also forget that China and india alone are consuming more oil today than the whole world was 25 years ago. In short oil is a world market and companies sell their product to the highest bidder.

When it comes to illeal (illegal being the key word) immigration I couldnt agree with you more. It is contributing to the watering down of American society, and has to be checked. We cannot continue to pay out more andmore money in the form of benefits for non-citizens.

I guess Im not sure what you are advocating Jack. I cant think of too many areas where we disagree on things. I for one am tired of the government getting in my way. I dont want a handout, I dont want their interference in every aspect. I want them to tell me how much I am reqired to pay from my income, and then leave me alone with the rest. I assure you I know how to spend my money better than they do. As for me, I cant believe the economic opportunity we have here, it is truly incredible.

I sincerely hope that Republicans do not go the way of Hoover and FDR and attempt to "save" us all through more interefrence, regulation, etc.

Nick, I won't presume I'm right on everything, but I know that oil moves this nation and oil is a national security issue...that makes it a priority of government to be sure its equitable, that energy sales are free of unfair practices and price manipulation.

Oil is also something that greatly effects the health of our economy right down to the smallest income. The price of oil and gasoline is critical to all of us until an alternative energy source comes along. Thats just a fact of daily life and thats why we focus on it so much...and how much oil companies are making. We worry about price fixing and we should!

Let me quote from John Wasik, author of "The Kitchen-Table Investor" and a columnist for Bloomberg Business News: "Soaring energy prices have literally hit home. Although it wasn't always true in the past, crude-oil and gasoline prices, along with higher financing costs and decreased affordability, may have pushed the U.S. housing market into a palpable decline."

This from the WSJ, "After years of caution, companies are raising prices on a range of consumer products, from cereal and beer to washing machines and toilet paper. This past week, cereal-maker Kellogg Co. and brewer Anheuser-Busch Cos. both said prices on their products are heading up. Airlines, after a period of cutting back, are flying with full planes -- and charging more for seats. Cigarettes and tissues are getting more expensive, and soon cruises may too."

Energy costs are driving up prices, adding to inflation, inflation hurts the economy and when the feds constrain the money flow and raise rates to control inflation we lose productivity and a whole series of events takes place that again... effects us all.

Have you noticed how gasoline at your local station can get price hikes of up to 10 cents in a day just because spot crude goes up that same day? If gasoline prices were truly tied to the cost of crude, this couldn't occur until that higher cost crude was refined and shipped to the station. But, we know this doesn't happen, gougers raise prices instantly to increases their profit margin by taking advantage of a headline, like a crisis and that is unethical, and taken to an extreme, illegal. Conversely, when the price of crude drops, there is a great lag time before pump prices are lowered...they drag it out to increase profit margins. This is small time stuff to the sort of price manipulation OPEC and the oil industry engage in simply because they can. We have evidence that refiners have deliberately slowed production to keep prices high too. I know we don't want to believe that, but it has happened.

The government could have done something about such practices and the price gouging long ago, Nixon took em on once and it really helped for a time.

The government could have encouraged alternate fuels too to help with supply and demand not to mention cleaner air. Ethanol can be produced far cheaper than the advertised $3 a gallon and corn is not the only suitable ag product for ethanol, but the corn lobby has its strings on Congress. Many alternative crops can produce ethanol for less and you have to wonder why they are not being used? Lobbists in congress would be my guess.

Oil companies have a vested interest in oil, they are not going to look after our best interest unless there is something in it for them, this is just logical. When they become a monopoly like the big 5 here, we are toast....totally at their mercy, their profits and our pump prices prove it.

This is not emotion speaking, this is cold logic.

As to the rich getting richer...sorry, but I really do believe America does have a growing underclass of poor citizens (evidence tends to support me on this too) and that is a real threat to our internal stability. Included in this are the low paid illegals, isolated from mainstream society and that will also adversely effect us.

But, consider blue collar wage adjustments I mentioned earlier. They are a paltry 3% this year while executives have adjusted their salary anywhere from 3 to 5 times that amount, increasing the parity spread between rich and poor. Example: The CEO at Allied Capital, made $5.8 million, that was more than five times what he was paid in 1998. It's not uncommon to see a 500% pay increase over a few short years for executives. And its not tied to results!

From the Washington Post: "An analysis of 282 local executives at 109 area companies who have had the same title from 2003 until the end of 2005 showed that merely sticking around gives an executive an excellent chance of getting a raise, sometimes a big one." Job performance has little to do with their fat compensation.

Did you know that in 2000, the average CEO salary reached an unbelievable 531 times that of the average hourly worker? Are they really worth it, because they get it whether the company does good or not. They get it because they can... just like oil companies and OPEC. I find that irresponsible, predatory capitalism and it threatens the security of the nation.

I wish I had more time right now to go into some of the problems I see, but I will have to save this for another time. You made some good points and I appreciate the thought you put into it, but I think as time goes by you will find all is not exactly as you were led to believe when it comes to oil price.

Jack, I'm having a little trouble linking republicans, oil profits and "the poor" as if they were all beads on a string. Republicans have REALLY let us down with spending, but putting market forces, personal choices, changes in the world and world events at their feet in terms of the economy is a little over the top.

We do face challenges, BIG ONES, in our changing world. I still trust Republicans with the economy over Democrats who will only strangle the baby in it's crib with their failed policies.

We can surmise just from common sense that there is a growing demand for oil with the emerging economies of China, India, and others. It may get much worse before it gets better. Still, all is not lost. It's somewhat amazing that our price at the pump is as low as it is given what is going on. The oil companies are pumping profit back into production, necessary production (I heard 40%). That takes a lot of the "Oh My!" out of the number.

There is no denying people can be greedy...all people, including the poor. The oil business is big business. If a person wants to play in that big money game they need to go get educated and make it happen. If they would rather do something else, run a bookstore for instance, they'd be deluding themselves if they think they will ever make the bucks that a CEO of Shell Oil makes. It's not the same game. If the book store could generate the revenue that the oil companies do, the bookstore owner would take a big chunk of the profits home...every time. Any owner would and, in fact, if he isn't doing everything he can to take a good profit home he won't be in business long. Some might give generous bonuses to their employees, some might not. The point is except for the big numbers, the motivation, the intent, the practice of business is pretty much the same in both large and small business.

America gets most of her oil now from Mexico and Canada. We are doing things to remove ourselves from dependence on OPEC, just as GWB said we would. I'm sure there are more plans in the works. Nuclear and alternative fuels for one.

We need more time as Jack said. Perhaps next week....

I see your point Jack, but I dont understand what you are advocating.

It appears like more government involvement, but I dont want to put words in your mouth.

Ill try to address these issues one at a time.

As far as the housing market. Where is the huge decline? Yes people are definately feeling the adjustments in certain areas, but come on, its not like the indicators werent there. In a way its like the tech boom of the 90's. People were pouring money into into companies with a PE ratio of up to 200! People were taking a gamble hoping that their particular company would be the next big blue chip. Many failed and a few prevailed and the result was the people who did their research more often than not, came out ok. Its no different with the real estate market. People dont want to take the time to research the market, intrest rates etc. and then they are surprised when things take a down turn or a correction. Im am not that bright and certainly not that well educated but I seem to have figured it out with very little research. In the end with all of the corrections, more Americans came out on top. And far more Americans percentage wise own their homes now, which is a great thing for the economy.

Corporate profits. Are the CEO's worth it? I dont know, Is Tiger Woods worth it? Their salaries are determined by a board, if that board does a poor job because of a lack of investor participation, than the little guy ends up getting hurt. But, again, the key is research. Personally I dont think that some of these CEO's are worth what they are paid, but unless I own stock in the company its not for me to say. If I do own stock, or if I do work in that company than I had better get involved or keep my mouth shut. In the end, if companies keep payiing CEO's more than they are worth, than they will fail, and better companies will prevail. Either way, I dont want some beuracrat determining how much thier salaries should be.

As far as an undercalss of poor citizens, i agree, but again, what is the solution? I see an underclass developing not because CEO's are taking higher salaries, but because foreginers are willing to do the same jobs for alot less. And the average American doesnt want to pay more for a product made in the US. That is the breaks. Salaries are in direct proportion to scarcity, not value. Tiger woods is no where near as valuable to society as a cop or a nurse but youll be hard pressed to find your humble civil servent making a frcation of what Tiger makes. So the bottom line is if you want to keep a good job, you need to educate yourself, if you are not willing to do that, there is no force on this earth that should help you keep a job that some one else is either willing to do better or for less. Sorry.

Another factor of the underclass is a direct result of government handouts. We have gotten in the buisness of paying people to do nothing, and surprise, surprise, that is exactly what we get. The concept of people who dont pay taxes getting to vote is parascitic. It is one of the reasons our country wasnt originally founded that way. Point out one other organization in this country where you dont have to contribute anything in order to vote on how the organization should be run. When you give someone the ability to vote the wealth away from one person in order to give it to themselves is there any surprise that there are political candidaes willing to buy their votes? Anyway, that is a larger issue that will probably never be solved. The point is the welfare state has got to go. If you are able but not willing to work, I dont care much if you starve. Cruel... I dont think so.

As far as oil. "The Supreme Court's recent 8 to 0 decision (Justice Alito not yet participating) shot down a claim that oil companies were colluding in setting prices. That claim was upheld by the far-left 9th Circuit Court of Appeals but neither liberals nor conservatives on the Supreme Court were buying it." Thomas Sowell

There you have it, if Ruth Bader Ginsburg can not find "proof" that the mean oil companies are "gouging" the little guy I dont know what the world has come to. Yes oil is a strategic concern. But we just arent all that worried about it, or else we would be rapidly swithcing to nuclear where possible, wed be drilling in Anwar etc. The bottom line is we are paying 3 dollars a gallon while people in europe are paying as much as 8. Im sorry, but as it stands right now, we dont not have a huge strategic concern when it comes to oil. And again, increased oil prices will shift private funds to fuel effecency and alternative sources.

We may very well be going through a huge economic transition. The likes of which can be compared to the industrial revolution or the high tech age. The new movement away from oil dependancy combined with globalization will be that unskilled labor will probably be put in the hurt locker. But in a way this is good. It is going to force America to evolve. We will be forced to demand higher standards out of our educational institutions. Competition inevitably means that someone will lose, but it is a good thing.

more to follow...

lol, ouch... I'm really catching it on this one, but I knew I would and its ok. Mine is not the typical conservative viewpoint and for that I must be prepared to take the heat!

Ok, ladies first, Tina, you said, "I'm having a little trouble linking republicans, oil profits and "the poor" as if they were all beads on a string." My response to that is the "string" is this burden on the entire American population caused by high energy prices. However, it impacts the poor disproportionately more than the rich, who could care less if they spend $100 to tank up, thats peanuts to them. But, when some poor old guy who works as a part-time greeter at Walmart and has to spend 38% more for fuel than last year, well thats tough, especially if it doesn't have to be that way.

Somewhere in between these two extreme examples are most of us and we all feel the pinch from high energy costs to a certain degree...so there you go, thats it, thats my linkage.

Next, Nick can I just take an easy one here? See Nick is really tough to debate and at this moment I'm kinda tired, mowed the lawn, cleaned out the garage and ready for some couch time! lol As for Ms. R. B. Ginsberg, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in what she could or could not find. What I know for a fact is that at a refiners convention in California last year, the President said after he thought the media was gone, that things are going pretty good for them, pump prices are way up and nobody should be too eager to start producing too much to rock the boat. (I am paraphrasing of course) Holy Moley...did that off-the-cuff remark get him in trouble, not for saying something they didn't all agree with, but for getting caught saying the honest truth! Also there is legal and there is right. We can do a lot of things that are legal, but we are restrained by our conscience. I'm not so sure the corporate world has a whole heck of a lot of conscience, nor restraint, nor much respect for the law if they can break it...Enron, huge scams, AOL Time Warner - overstated earnings, Arthur Andersen Accounting, obstructing justice and cooking the books, CMS Energy artifically increased profits with round trip energy sales, Duke Energy (same thing), Dynegy Energy - same thing, El Paso - same thing and so it goes, World Com, Global Crossing, I can name dozens more of some of the biggest companies in the US that delt the "little guy" a low blow and took a lot of life savings.

Thats part of my skepticism about big oil. Also I think there is too much smoke hanging around the big 5 oil companies to be dismissed a just guys trying to make an honest buck and I can cite a lot more reasons why I say that, but not right now...movie is on, my grandson says it's a good one and the big couch is calling me! More to follow...nite all!!!

Thanks for your great comments...I think Tina and Nick should have their own law office!

what movie is it?

Please dont misunderstand, I dont think I would enjoy a cocktail with oil execs, and as a true capitolist I dont trust buisnessman. (You wont find anything positive said about buisnessman in The Wealth Of Nations.)

I just think the best way to hurt the little guy even more is to let the do-gooder politicians manipulate and economoy they dont care to understand, for the purpose of winning votes.

Now I have to go watch Greys Anatomy, because my wife says so.

Take care

Jack, We don't know each other, as you have shared here before, I know you only from your writing...but I must say, you have a really big heart! It comes through in your writing.

The string, as you described it now makes more sense, these things are universally connected. I just think the economy is always in a state of flux and the American people will selfishly right this problem of energy if the government will just let it alone. In America opportunity is like cookies to a sugar addict. It's incredible what we can do when we put our minds to it.

America's poor are doing pretty well by worldly standards. I feel for people on fixed incomes and those with limited means during times like this but if all the CEO's donated their salaries and bonuses for 10 years it wouldn't change a thing.

People have got to learn to take better care of themselves. And America has got to do a better job of educationg people about what it takes to take care of ourselves.

But, when some poor old guy who works as a part-time greeter at Walmart and has to spend 38% more for fuel than last year, well thats tough, especially if it doesn't have to be that way.

You said, "especially when it doesn't have to be that way". I guess this means you really believe the condition can be avoided, altered or changed and I'm still not sure how any group of people could keep all things equal or fair all the time for everyone. How could wed do that?

I wish I had more time to paly but i have an assignment to do!

Tina, thanks for the kinds words. Maybe I should explain that a lot of my skepticism (cynicism too) about gasoline prices comes from decades as a criminal investigator, an avid investor/stock trader and a news hound. After what I've seen, it's a wonder I trust anybody! lol

And I admit, sometimes I'm guilty of looking for facts to fit my suspicions. Better to let the facts fall where they may. So I will try to keep a more open mind about oil companies and pump prices, but its really hard to believe em!!!! lol

Here are a few suggestions that I think could help us pay less for fuel.

First, we (u.s. citizens) have to look at fuel a little differently than just another commodity. If bread went up too high, we could quit eating bread until the price came down, but we can't stop using gasoline. I think the oil industry counts on this. We are stuck with what they deal out, even though they are toying with our national security and our nations economy.

Therefore, as something so vital to us, any hint of monopolistic practices, price gouging or manipulation ought to get investigated immediately, even though I hate government regulation and oversight.

Next, what constitutes price gouging needs to be redefined and tightened up. It's far too broad and it allows for modest price gouging to be absolutely legal. I want to see near zero price gouging. For instance price gouging can result indirectly from a refinery slow down. There is nothing to stop a refiner from cutting back production to keep supplies low in order to keep prices high. We saw how Enron got certain power producers to go offline for maintenance...thats the kind of dirty pool I am talking about here and to coin an old saying..."There oughta be a law..."

Next, its worth considering a law that says gasoline in the ground must be sold at the original price advertised, it can't arbitrarily be raised just because crude oil took a spike two months after that gasoline was made.

That later price hike really has nothing to do with the gas already in the ground at the station. Somebody is just being greedy (gouging us) because they can get away with it. The current law says its ok.

Next, and probably most importantly, as consumers, I think we all ought to do what we can to lessen demand. That means driving smarter, driving less, using more fuel efficient vehicles and so on.

I started driving a Honda Civic two years ago for that very reason and when gas prices started climbing I was really happy I had this little car.

I modified it slightly and now it gets about 40 MPG highway and around 35+ mpg around town. Fuel cost is not nearly the burden on me as it is for others. Like one of my kids, she drives a big Jeep Grand Cherokee (14 mpg city). She likes to borrow my Civic whenever she can! lol

I suppose I can afford to drive something nicer, but it was my choice to drive this little Civic because I felt it was the right thing to do and my pocket book has thanked me ever since! lol

That said, I would never demand anybody else be forced to follow my lead...nooo way. But, I bet if everybody got 40 mpg like I do, we would soon see that supply v. demand ratio change to our favor and this would lead to falling pump prices or we would have every right to know why not!

FYI I heard VW has a dielsel that gets up to 60 mpg... I doubt any Escalade or Navigator drivers are going to rush out to get one, but for those tightwads like me, this is good news!

Volkswagen is no stranger as a fuel miser. Its Lupo 3L, got 78-mpg city, but didn't sell well at the time and they phased it out. But, now they have this jazzier Polo Blue, selling for under 20k...60 mpg! Bet sales will be much better now!

Thank you Jack for laying out soem ideas for what you think should be done. It is incredibly refreshing to see people have a solution for the problems they address.

I think those are resonable suggestions for the most part, my fear is that such policies would be instituted by unreasonable politicians.

I do question telling dealers what they are allowed to sell their product for. It just seems fundamentally wrong to me. We could eat less bread, but by the same token there are several ways we could use less gas. And you mentioned some at teh end of your post.

Supply vs. Demand is the fundamental issue here, and that is the only true way to address it. If the government atempts to get involved to control the supply or demand aspect it will lead to shortages.

"I think Tina and Nick should have their own law office!"

Now that's amusing...and intriguing!I don't know about Nick, but I'd never make it through the required educational process!

"We are stuck with what they deal out,.."

Yes, but only for the short term. Opportunity abounds and demand will beg for new alternatives. I've said it before, the guys at MIT, Livermore, and places like Stanford Research, not to mention a bunch of corn farmers and amateur inventors are up to their elbows in pursuit of the next big thing in energy!

My Honda is 18 years old and has never needed anything but regular oil changes, tires and a battery or two. If you have time and it's not too complicated...what's the conversion that brings higher gas milage? Oh, and I read today that both Toyota and Honda sales are up last month...fuel concerns! The people speak.

Tina and others, if you wish to improve fuel mileage on your car here are some basic changes that really work:

1. Change the air filter for a high flow type. They cost a bit more than a paper filter, but they work better and they never have to be replaced. K&N makes a good one. Cost about $35

2. Low restriction exhaust. Change out that old muffler for a "Flo-Master" or similar. They sound about the same, maybe a touch louder, but they reduce backpressure, enhance performance and increse mileage...if you keep your foot light. Cost is about $100

3. Tire air pressure - I run an extra 5 lbs.

Oil additives, hot spark plugs, water injectors, gas additives are just sales gimmicks in my opinion. A properly tuned car, including regular change to inline fuel filter are all thats needed to get best performance and if you ad the above you can probably eek out another 5-10% mileage.

"Im sorry but I am sooo tired of hearing about all of these have nots, ..."

Oh, dear. How very Republican. But it's not in a Republican's interest to let those "have nots" get too uncomfortable. You may not be having any trouble with the $3.00 gas, but lots of people are. I heard today that the mortgage default rate was WAY UP. Unemployment is modestly up.

The current Congress talks immigration reform, but will do nothing. They talk tax reform, but we's payin' more than ever. They talk education reform and every other school district in the nation is a hair's breadth from bankruptcy. They talk decent health care, and the number of uninsured has risen every year Bush has been in office. If the citizens come to notice any of this (and the citizens being what they are, they may not), the current Congress is toast.

It's not in a Republican's interest to let those "have nots" get to comfortable? Republicans and Democrats don't have all that much to do with a "have nots" comfort. It is up to them whether they remain as "have nots" or not.

If in the past 50 years a "have not" hasn't found a leg up in this country he hasn't tried. We have free education to 12th grade. We have every kind of program and grant a person could want, we have welfare and charity up the wazoo...we have promoted and funded every solution a Democrat could ever imagine and push, and still there are "have nots" in America. HELLO...does anyone notice a pattern here? Is it penetrating the brain at all that most of these people have no desire to be anything more than a "have not"? We can't seem to let go of the "enablers game" of making it very easy for them to be just that uninspired and uninvolved in their own lives and self interest!

Check your stats on the economy and taxes, they are wrong. Every American had his tax rate lowered. If you are paying more in taxes, it can only be because you are earning more...or get a better CPA. Tax revenues are up, both personal and corporate, because of expansion. More people making more opportunity and more money. Bush has spent more on education than any other president...if the schools aren't getting it they should look to the NEA and bureaucracy above the classroom. People who are uninsured are, for the most part, uninsured by personal choice. Those who aren't need to eat at home more, stay away from the mall and the movies, buy fewer gadgets and purchase health insurance with the savings. That's what responsible people do.
Republicans do deserve to take a hit for spending too much but, if Democrats take over the Congress the rest of us are toast. Higher taxes will kill opportunity and the economy, healthcare reform will ruin the medical field and further help to kill the economy and terrorists will be laughing all the way to the bank where they will begin to build for the next big thing in Jihad. LOFL.

Great comments Tina and once again we really are on the same page!

I worry (for reasons previously stated) that the GOP will give up to much ground in the next election. A little ground is fine, consider it a wake up call. Too much ground and the country (you and me) are going to get hurt because we'll see Dems take over and do for the nation what they did for California and New Jersey.

Oh Look Libby commenting on only a portion of what was said, and offer no solution...how very liberal of you.

Do you have time to discuss now? Or is your job to overwhelming?

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