POST SCRIPTS

Hello Tina,

You say that "Acts of terrorism can be traced back to the 1970's and the Iran Hostage crisis." That's just a wee-bit myopic. I suggest we all do some homework regarding this complicated history.

According to David Lamb's "The Arabs" (which by the way paints a much less than flattering picture of the Arabs), "Terrorism, which derives from the Greek word meaning -to tremble- is virtually as old as civilization itself and is by no means unique to the Middle East. State sponsered terrorism is also an old weapon (of European, not Arab, origin), dating in its present form back to 1793-94.."

Further he writes, "More recently, when British rule was coming to an end in Palestine, both the Arabs and the Jews practiced terrorism against one another, and against the British. Jewish terrorists killed 338 British citizens in Palestine during the 1940's. They blew up the King David Hotel, killing ninety-one persons, and perfected the lethal letter bomb, which later became the favorite weapon of the Arabs."...

Furthmore, he writes "I have in my files a photostat of a WANTED poster issued by British authorities about 1943. It shows the mug shots of ten men hunted as terrorists....the first is that of...Menachem Begin, and he and his collegue, Ytzhak Shamir, also a suspected terrorist, were to become future prime minester's of Isreal." Won't hear that from FOX News!

Tina, perhaps you are confusing the origins of terrorism in the 1970's with the rise of radical Islamic fundamentalism at about that time, which by the way, we have no small part in instigating in Iran (see your history book).

What is important to note about the atrocities that you mention (and others more recent), is that they start with a political entity that is able, through brilliant manipulation of the truth through media, to sway public opinion towards normalization of what is otherwise deemed unacceptable by the sane (e.g., waging an illegal war based on lies). Your doing a helluva job there Rove! Do you know why they call him "Turd-Blossom"?

Mind you, I'm not a "liberal", nor am I a "pacifist"..so please, nobody go there. My parents were victims of the Third Reich, and a good part of my family is on the verge of homelessness in Lebanon [they live(d) in some of the Christian suberbs of Beirut].

As you so accurately write, "when good people deny the presence of evil, we give it a place". I strongly feel that if people insist on using terms like "evil", they should use the term in its accurate entirety (see The Good Book). It's a little more complicated than pointing fingers at others.

I once read that true evil is not what is easily seen, but that which knowingly decieves the elect. Hmmm...sounds kinda familiar..! (again, helluva job there Turd Blossom!)

It's difficult to take clean sides in a Chicken-or-the-Egg situation, unless of course, you believe everything the King says, or if you get most of your news from FOX, CNN, or A.M radio.

Complicated little world that it is....

Cheers!

John Dittes
Los Molinos, CA

Geez. You just can't hardly wait, can you?

But try, would you please. Football season's just around the corner.

Libby, I'll take you first since it requires little thought...go for the football.

Mr. Dittes, Chicken/egg is exactly right. I would never suggest that any group of people has been without fault. I do not use the word evil lightly, however, and if you do indeed read the good book, instead of just using it as a HAMMER, you know very well that people are quite capable of evil.

Acts of terrorism indeed occurred before the seventies. We could talk about the fifteen hundreds when Arabs were waging war and taking lands in Europe but that would be silly, now wouldn't it? I chose the seventies because it represents a reasonably recent time frame for which living human beings can assume responsibility. You are deluding yourself if ancient history is your excuse for letting radical Islamist terrorists off the hook in modern times. You sited one opinion of history (David Lambs). He is not the only historian on the planet. I would recommend Dr. Jack Wheeler who's knowledge of history and personal involvement with and love for the people of the region lend him great credence. I would also recommend Michael Medved whose knowledge of history and all religions is remarkable.

Tina, perhaps you are confusing the origins of terrorism in the 1970's with the rise of radical Islamic fundamentalism at about that time, which by the way, we have no small part in instigating in Iran (see your history book).

I am not confused in the least and am well aware of the errors of past administrations. It could be said that Jimmy Carter's role Opened the door wide to the mess we're in! Putting all of that aside, once again you excuse radical Islamists by blaming America. The one thing the Bush, Rove, et al haters will not address is the fact that radical Islam has many choices, thousands of them, that they dismiss in favor of killing innocent people. The only stated goal they have is the destruction or conversion of Israel, America, Christians and all non-Islamic people. If they had other issues, contentions and grievances they could bring them to the rest of the world, where through conversation and taffy pulling we discover solutions. They are not willing to do that. It's time we said enough. Just like the world finally did with Hitler.

What is important to note about the atrocities that you mention (and others more recent), is that they start with a political entity that is able, through brilliant manipulation of the truth through media, to sway public opinion towards normalization of what is otherwise deemed unacceptable by the sane (e.g., waging an illegal war based on lies). Your doing a helluva job there Rove! Do you know why they call him "Turd-Blossom"?

Ahhh, at last you reveal your true nature. You covertly call me an idiot while pretending to be a reasonable non liberal who thinks he knows some history. Acts of terrorism on Americans and others around the world are not lies perpetrated by this or any of the other administrations since the seventies. We all saw them happen. Your pentient for denial of this truth is matched only by your willing embrace of the sore loser, pretentious, arogant leftist point of view.

If your parents were actually victims of the Third Reich then shame on you. It is you, my friend, who are being deluded by the Karl Rove hating leftist media and blog smog. The German people, and many others in Europe, failed to see the real threat of the Nazi (socialist) party in Germany, just as you and your ilk refuse to see the real threat to the world today.

It will be America and England, led by Bush and Blair, that will help the people of Lebanon to rebuild and regain control of their country. It is Hezbolah with aid from Syria and Iran that has brought destruction on the people of Lebanon. Using private homes to hide and house their weapons and using the Lebonese people as human shields are but two of the ways they brought this on.

You can contimue to call fellow Americans names all you want, this is a free country. I doubt if America's enemies would cut you the same slack and if they should win this battle, there's a good chance you'll have the opportunity to find out.

I can only imagine what your gray watered down news sources are...given your potty mouth I would bet you spend most of your time on the lefty blogs.

If I'm myopic, sir, you are a blind man.

Thanks for commenting and cheers to you as well.

Tina, the more I read what liberals write and learn how they think, the more convinced I am that the division between us is not one that can be bridged by logic. We deal in absolutes, like the absolutes we see in mathmatics. Example: 2+6 equals 8, but, this is not necessarily the case in the liberal's complex, multi-dimensional world.

They [see] that problem in ways the average conservatives couldn't. To the liberal, "The 2 is a needy number, going through life dominated by bigger numbers. Therefore, (in their logic), 2 ought to be the equal of 6! So, first we must deduct -2 from 6 and that leaves it a 4 and add +2 to the original 2 and wallah, its now 4 + 4 = 8! But, the liberals thinks, "Wait, I can't assume that the answer is 8, first I must consider does 8 really exist? Better yet, do I exist, maybe this is all a dream?" Hours later... the liberal has the ultimate answer..."It's Bush's fault!"

Why Bush, one might wonder???? Liberal explains, "Bush hired Karl Rove, Karl Rove has 8 letters in his name, 8 letters...think!!! Rove is sending out his name in a subliminal message to the press (that he manipulates), every time they hear the number 8. But, fortunately we liberals are always one step ahead!"

Yep, liberals are way, way ahead...so far ahead one might think they are really out there! I have to go take an aspirin now, just trying to think like a liberal has given me a headache...

Tina,

How do you read from my note that I'm an apologist for Fundamental Islamic Terrorists? Where am I calling you or my fellow Americans Names? Turd-Blossom is Bush's own nickname for Rove..if that's the name-calling you refer to.

My point was simply (and rereading it must say it was done without defending terrorists, or calling anyone names), that if you want to use historical precedent to justify the "War On Terror", fine. Just get the history right.

I think that a war against a warped set of ideas requires that we understand the history and take the moral high-ground...from the bottom up.

That's what was so great about the "Greatest War" and the "Greatest Generation". America rode in proudly on its moral-High-Horse and cleaned it up.

In this not-so-truthful rush to this most recently started and upcoming war, I just think it necessary to make sure the "Moral High-Horse" that we're now riding isn't actually a little donkey.

Regarding my news sources..here's the criteria I like to use...does it provide a forum for leading authorities and regular people with opposite points of view to discuss issues without shouting matches or name-calling, or hanging up the phone. One where people can finish their sentances without interruption; a venue that's "Fair and Balanced".

Jack, do you regard the good number of Conservative Republicans around the country now questioning our approach all "Liberals" too?

Best regards,

John D.

With one obvious exception, liberals will avoid absolutes at all costs, they are unable to deal with the consequences of being decisive. They will push a bad agenda until it becomes such a mess it no longer matters how it started or who started it, just as long as they don't have to clean it up. Cleaning up a mess takes decisive action, they will do nothing to help, and you can count on them to hinder any progress being made.
Their absolute hate for conservatives and conservative ideals are the "keystone" to liberalism. Good luck being "progressive" hauling all that hate around.

Jack, You're 2-4-6-8 logic was very entertaining! I agree with you that logic doesn't penetrate for the hard core liberal, the ones who have fallen in love with "the cause". Likewise, information doesn't mix well with their strongly held beliefs and given the extreme hatred that holds it all together, whoa, fagedaboudet! It's super glue.

I don't mind responding to them though. We never know who might benefit from the exchange. As a seeker of wisdom and truth, I look for gems in every situation.

Hope the aspirin helped to untie that pretzle brain!

John, I read your interesting statements and I thank you for your input (same goes for Tina too..excellent points Tina and I agree completely).

John, of course you were right about the mutuality of terrorism in Israel, thats just a historical fact and a truly shameful part of their early history that most Israelis would rather forget.

As I recall, there were small, but active number of really radicals groups formed in the mid 40's, like the Hagahna then progressing into the more radical, if not outright criminal types, the Irgun, Lehi gang and the Stern gang to name a few. Some Arab militants had their gangs too; they were both incredibly violent and both incredibly wrong!

As compared to the total Arab and Jewish population, both sides had only fractional membership. The Hagana probably had the largest, but only because it was more of a paramilitary defense operation than a terrorist organization.

Yes, the atrocities were many and it was extremely difficult to stop for either the Arabs or the Jews.

Jewish terrorism lasted for about four years and at its peak in 46-47 they did a lot of damage, including blowing up Arab buses, hotels, doing letter bombs and kidnappings. This was a very dark chapter in Israeli history and nobody in Israel is going to minimize or excuse it, however in some small measure we might understand how the Jews were treated at the period in world history and we might have some empathy.

It's important to note, being a fairly successful terrorist doesn't require a lot of brains or skill, look at John Malvo or the Son of Sam. Not exactly Einstein’s. So is it any wonder we are having trouble stopping the violence Iraq now? But, that’s not really where I wanted to go.

Now back to the main point: The Bush administration has taken a lot of criticism about the WMDs in Iraq. And whether we should have invaded Iraq or not, seems to hinge now on just the issue of WMDs. Even though there are a ton of other compelling reasons we could visit.

This WMD thing remains a big mystery, even for the devout Bush supporters. There are tiny bits and pieces of the puzzle still emerging and that tells us it is by no means an issue that has been 100% resolved. Yet, to hear the left talk it was resolved. There were no WMDs and Bush completely misled the American people and the world, according to them.

Now there is case where the left has really committed themselves, no wiggle room. Even before the invasion they were saying this, which to me was really suspicious because it took a huge leap of faith to say that. It was way too early to know if Iraq had secret stores of WMDs or not and 5 years later we still don't know, as I said, the information is still trickling in.

Speaking of evidence coming in, Anthony Watts discovered the site noted below and shared it with me. Now I'll pass it on for your review. I was aware of this information, but I had not actually seen the decoded document.

I admit, its not conclusive by itself, but if you look at this and the total sum of evidence to date that has been collected on WMDs, only a fool would conclude Iraq absolutely didn't have WMDs just prior to our invasion.

I say that strongly, because one would have to dismiss every piece of circumstantial evidence as part of some big conspiracy plot and at the same time, dismiss all former Iraqi military officers and scientists statements as completely and utterly bogus and then completely believe only those with an anti-war agenda or an anti-US agenda. A reasonable person would have to have some suspicions.

Check this out...I'm not declaring it anything but something worth at least considering:

http://static.flickr.com/62/200505473_51a5c9b170_o.jpg

and

http://static.flickr.com/78/200505419_f83b5ee970_o.jpg

here is the original document in Iraqi handwriting

http://static.flickr.com/71/200492554_d83926db9e_o.jpg

Thanks again to everybody that has been postingon this thread, the exchange has been great reading.

How do you read from my note that I'm an apologist for Fundamental Islamic Terrorists?

I don't think I said you were an "apologist", in fact that wouldn't make sense if I hear you correctly. What you hint at, if I may, is that all acts are the same. A terrorist that flies planes into buildings, a "leader" who funds terrorist acts, murders millions of his own people, threatens his neighbors through invasion and acts of terror, fires rockets on planes in a no-fly zone, takes out a contrat on a US president, defies UN resolutions, plays a cat and mouse game with the world regarding WMD in defiance of UN resolutions...is not the same as a coalition of countries who resolve to finally act to stop the terrorism. But in your statements you attempt to make them the same.

The evidence we have on WMD has been reported but with little fanfare, no surprise there. A media dedicated to foment hatred for Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rummy wouldn't dream of reporting things that would help our efforts, our troops, our mission. All of these can be sacrificed on the alter of reelection for democrats. That is another form of evil...for another time. Thanks to all.

Tina: "The evidence we have on WMD has been reported but with little fanfare, no surprise there."

Indeed, such "evidence" not been reported, cause there isn't any. You grasp at phantoms to support what seems to be a very worrisome NEED for an enemy.

We here in America are lucky. We have Pro-sports, explicitly contrived to sublimate such disruptive psychologies, and keep the peace.

You equate Nazism with Islam in fashion that defies all logic, not to mention history. Your rhetoric is inflammatory and bigoted and, I mean, I'm sorry, but somebody has to point this out.