POST SCRIPTS

Libby, I think your writing style is definitely getting better. I still can't agree with the content, but you are humorous and clever. And you get people to think. That's really important to us here, no matter what our personal politics might be, we love it when our thoughts, yours, mine, Tina's, anyone's, challenges others to think!!!!!

"Libby X" Tee Hee. I like it.

Libby X writes:

"...it's also sort of petulantly "neener, neener." We're supposed to be grown-ups.

Then Libby responds:

"Tee Hee. I like it."

Ok, enough with the petulant, non-grown-up stuff

Libby X : "Did you know that Bechtel is not a public company? So it's not even like a taxpaper can buy some shares and get some of their own back. I disapprove.

Ms. X disapproves of private ownership of a company? Karl would approve, my dear girl.

I guess it would be easier from your point of view if the government just owned all the businesses. It would be cool, right? You wouldn't have to worry about big business anymore, or about buying stock...and the bonus...you could visit with your friends while you stand in line for bread.

I found the following on Bechtel's website:

"While helping hurricane victims, Bechtel also helped revitalize the area’s economy. Almost half of the company’s relief work has gone to firms in Mississippi, and over 60 percent to firms from the Gulf Coast region. Moreover, 80 percent of the subcontracts were awarded to small businesses.
The U.S. government chose Bechtel largely on the strength of its record of responding in times of great need. Since the 2003 Iraq conflict, Bechtel has helped reconstruct that nation’s vital infrastructure. After the terrorist attacks of September 2001, the company assisted health and safety efforts during rescue and recovery at the site of the World Trade Center. When unrest in the Balkans displaced thousands of people in 1999, Bechtel built a fully functional tent city for 20,000 Kosovar refugees in less than 60 days. And following the Gulf War in 1991, the company managed an effort that extinguished oil well fires in Kuwait."

Sounds to me like they do honest work around the globe. Work that few others are prepared to do. They also subcontract work to a multitude of businesses. That means a lot of work for a lot of people. Better than bread lines in my book. I approve.

She goes on:

"...at this point ... nobody will play with us anyway.

I guess the leaders of France, Germany, England, Japan, Israel, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Canada, to name a few, just don't count.

And finally:

" Iran is making out famously, foreign influence-wise, foreign aid-wise."

Such glee in your discourse!

Thankfully for the rest of us, the fat lady has not
yet begun to sing.

Tina: Oh geez, if you could see me now, I'm doing the Waynes World routine where Dana Carvey and Michael Meyers are bowing down to this rock idol...but, this time its is in recognition to one of your best responses ever posted here. Wow...lol... you are sooooo good sometimes, it's scary.

Jack, I guess the following is proof that "encouragement" gives incentive to the recipient:

Libby X also said in her title:

"BushCo's Policies Alienate Civilized World"

Let's take a look at what Miz X's "civilized world" is "alienated" by:

1.Those who refuse to knuckle under to murderous thugs who target innocent people including old people, women and children.
2. Those who wish to end the practice of enslavement or murder for anyone who will not bow down to the Islamic religion.
3. Those who wish to stop terrorists who threaten the use of weapons of mass destruction including nuclear weapons, serin gas, anthrax, small pox, etc. around the world.
4. Those who stand against thugs who advocate the subjugation of women, including the practice of circumcision and death by stoning for failing to wear proper covering.
5.Those who believe all human beings should be treated with respect and honor.
6. Those who believe that international disputes can and should be resolved by peaceful means.
7. Those who believe that peace keeping agreements should be honored and followed.
8. Those who appose the use of terror and fear to force beliefs on others.
9. Those who appose practices like publicly chopping the heads from journalists &making a video of it to further terrorise the world.
10. Those who, no matter how viscious and acid the criticism from political opponents, manage to continue to do what he sauys he will do to protect the American people...just as his oath of office requires him to do...that would be President George W. Bush.

Thank God, he's one of the truly "civilized" people in the world and not one of Miz X's phony types!

And Jack....it is I who's "not worthy!" ;-)

"I guess it would be easier from your point of view if the government just owned all the businesses."

I believe I was grousing because Bechtel is not a public company, one that is not owned by shareholders, but by a handful of exceptionally wealthy people. Misrepresenting peoples' positions is not a very effective argument technique, and I'm hoping (yet again) that you will cease to use it.

The government doesn't come into it, except that Bectel could be seen as a proxy-company of our government: that is, implementing American foreign policy with taxpayer dollars ... so what's with the "senior partners"? What do they do to earn their cut?

It's just something to think about.

And I never said Bechtel didn't do work. It does lots of work. I am, as always, questioning the allocation of resources here in the ol' USA.

"BushCo's Policies Alienate Civilized World"

I must point out that the above is Jack's doing, not mine. Not that I don't agree...

And as to the little list, the entire "civilized" world came to realize quite some time back that war-making is of little use in accomplishing any of the items on the little list. WWII did not bring us 50 years of relative peace; it was the Marshall Plan and subsequent similar subsidies that did that. Korea, Vietnam (them dirty commies!), Iraq I, Iraq II, Lebanon I (them dirty muslims!) ... total failures, all of them.

Libby, Yes, I was indulging in another snide remark...this time I'm proud of it. Your record of support for "things socialist " affords me a bit of license in my book. Besides it was more of a rhetorical remark as my "I guess" would suggest. Private ownership is central to our liberty and works to the good of all in the world of commerce.

"...except that Bectel could be seen as a proxy-company of our government: that is, implementing American foreign policy with taxpayer dollars ... so what's with the "senior partners"? What do they do to earn their cut?"

I'm not sure what a "proxy-company" would be or exactly what it means to you. Like it or not the government uses our tax dollars for "things" and Bechtel responds to the need by offering it's expertise and services. The jobs they perform are a result of winning a bid or are awarded because there is no other company that can perform the work. They do not write legislation or set policy in any way or fashion. The people who represent you have made those decisions. That's how it works in a Republic.

I have no idea what the "senior partners" do to earn the money they make. It might be that some sit on their duffs...but I doubt it. The jobs at the top are always viewed by the workers as cushy. Anyone who owns a business is laughing right now. A couple of questions. How would you like to be the person responsible for making sure there was work to do in the future, that there was enough money available for everything you do in the present and the future, all of the materials, rents, utilities, salaries and benefits for all the employees and some left over for your "cut"...after taxes and insurance and putting up bonds, some of which can run in the millions of dollars, is paid of course? You would get to carry all of that on your little shoulders. How much do you think a job like that is worth? And if you were the person who started the company on a shoestring and a lot of debt and with scraping and saving and borrowing and worrying and having your family do without and you managed to grow it into something viable and then into something huge beyond your wildest dreams wouldn't you feel like you had EARNED the right to take a "CUT" after everything else was paid for?

"And as to the little list, the entire "civilized" world came to realize quite some time back that war-making is of little use in accomplishing any of the items on the little list."

Libby, "The entire civilized world" ? I love the way you think you speak for everyone...how imperial of you! What "defensive" war does is put a stop to those who would like to hold a gun to your head or chop it off at whim. Your type never addresses what's to be done when others who will not play nice. WWII stopped Hitler and Hirohito in their tracks...cleared the board so that people could get back to the business of personal priorities and pursuits. People died so you could be free to sit and write these silly posts...and it seems to mean absolutely nothing to you. Incredible.

It is the commies, as you colorfully call them, and the terrorists that perpetrate and perpetuate war. If they stop, it all stops.

And please let it be known that it is you who refer to Muslims as "dirty"...not I. The problem with you is that you cannot differentiate between people who have declared war by jihad and simple people of the region who just want to live life in peace. We did not make war on Iraq, or the people of Iraq...we made war on those who were about terrorizing the US and others around the world and those who sponser or support terrorism around the world and the leader of Iraq fit in that context with his WMD and his use of them and his threats and his defiance for years of at least 14 UN resolutions. Failed? Hardly. Two budding democracies and millions of people who voted in each case. Their votes mean something whether you acknowledge it or not.

As I said, the fat lady has not yet begun to sing.

Tina: "They [corporations] do not write legislation or set policy in any way or fashion. The people who represent you have made those decisions."

Mercy on us! Does the phrase "campaign finance reform" ring a bell with you at all?

Tina: "It is the commies, as you colorfully call them, and the terrorists that perpetrate and perpetuate war."

Do they? We were attacked by Korea, Vietnam, Iraq ... Hezbollah, even? The point of my statement was that we seem to be inclined to make "boogies" out of concepts and/or nations which are, in fact, no threat to us. Ask yourself whether a nation NOT up to its armpits in "military-industrial complex" would feel any need to do this.

Tina: "And please let it be known that it is you who refer to Muslims as "dirty"...not I."

But you latched right on to it, didn't ya? Interesting. It's called parallel construction. "Dirty Commie" is a cliche, used now chiefly by the left to poke fun at paranoia on the right. What do you suppose "Dirty Muslim" purports to do?

Tina: "As I said, the fat lady has not yet begun to sing."

And, again, I've never denied we've got a problem. My position is that BushCo hasn't got the brains to deal with it, and we bloody well better get somebody into both the White House and the Congress who has. We'll start with Wally. He's positively got to go.

Campaign Finance Reform- a political scheme designed to win votes and limit certain donations to campaigns...only it backfired, as it should have since it's probably inconstitutional anyway. The thing you are looking for is "influence". Something every citizen, pack, entity, corporation, union, and welfare recipient has. Alway have had it, always will.

Perhaps you recall a chubby guy who sat at the UN and told the whole world "we will bury you" and then proceeded to take over territories by force, constantly building his war machine to the detriment of his own people. To a hippy dippy peacenik it might not seem like a big deal but to those who were old enough to remember WWII, the one the chubby guy was involved in, the threat was real. Yes we took it seriously.

If your only opinion of America is that we are a nation protecting a "military-industrial complex" I feel sorry for you. You must feel like cr*p most of the time.

No I didn't "latch" on to "dirty muslims". I was merely making clear on this very public forum that I was not the one who used this derogatory appellation.

Your side loves to pretend that GWB and the people who work with him "have no brains". That is usually what people do when they have no solutions.

"The thing you are looking for is "influence"."

Ah, but how much influence? This has reminded me of the six-year struggle by members of our Congress to get Cheney to divulge just how much influence the Oil Boys had over BushCo energy policy. The man will not tell. Why do you suppose the man will not tell? And then there is the defunct Mr. Delay's "K Street Project", wherein industry lobbiests WRITE LEGISLATION. Honestly, where have you been?

What on earth has Khrushchev got to do with anything? Rumsfeld tried to pull the same thing yesterday in his "traitorous opposition" speech. We are here and it is now, and the whole "Hitler" mindset has already proven totally ineffective. As near as I can tell the problem is chiefly sociological, and I haven't any idea what we're going to do about it. But I'll tell you this. We simply cannot lock up and/or kill ever Islamic male between the ages 15 and thirty. It ain't civilized.

Libby, Well I haven't been reading the Huffington rag that's for sure.

How much influence? This is hysterical coming from a pinko in denial. Have you ever heard of labor unions? How much legislation do you suppose they are responsible for? As a matter of fact, if you look at welfare, social security, education, funding for the "arts", and a million other "programs" enacted since the early sixties I think you'll find "influence fairly drips from them. Now who's influence do you suppose that represents? Is there a mirror handy?

I'm sure you recall John F. Kennedy's desire to fight communism...remember, he was the one who put us in Viet Nam. I'm sure if you try hard you can figure out the Khrushchev thing too.

"The whole Hitler...mindset"? "Proven totally ineffective"? Demonstate that point please. It sounds like psychobabble to me.

The biggest problem America faces here at home is that you guys think this is a sociological problem...those po folks just need some kinda program or something. Probably been oppressed by the "military-industrial complex". It can't be that they have a "mind-set" that doesn't allow for them to play nice with others.

Regarding The Busco Delay rant: You've heard the phrase "no there there"...I think your side invented it. Well, there isn't. The whole Valerie "blame the administration" Plame game was garbage from the start as we discovered for certain today. It won't be front page news for weeks on end but it does signal some of that ugly truth you're so fond of. The rest of your sides assertions are equally nuts and designed for one purpose and one purpose only...and it isn't defending the country, it's impeachment dreams for payback and power.
And you act like we can't see you.

Taking a strong and certain stand is something every male understands in his bones unless he has been oppressed into a state of feminist fluff from birth. The one thing men get is that taking a strong stand against a lethal enemy is the only option. At some point the opponent will say uncle (unless as in Viet Nam a bunch of long-haired bead wearing children with a willing press undermines the effort). A truth that reveals itself after the big fight is that often you are not required to do all you have "threatened", but you must be prepared to follow through in order to win. The duration of the conflict depends on the commitment of the opponent. Since ours is very committed it may be a long hard war on many fronts...which is what Bush said September 12, 2001. They also understand that in victory you often end up with a friend or ally. Having an ally is far superior to putting up with the idea that large buildings might blow up on any given day. It is far superior to UN sanctions and agreements that are never honored and invite corruption as we discovered in the UN Oil for Food program.

There were people who said we'd never put a man in space and for good reason...we didn't have the technology. So much for naysayers, unbelievers, poo pooers, and cynics.

History for the Left didn't start five minutes ago. History as far as the left is concerned starts and stops every time a Republican enters and leaves office. If I am wrong, why doesn't the Left ever confront John Kerry or Bill Clinton on their claims made in the late 90's about Iraq and WMD? I think that is a pretty good example. Please feel free to either correct me if I am wrong or add your own example.

When are you all going to let go of this WMD thing? It's certainly another of those ugly truths, but we've been "in country" for nearly four years now, and absolutely nothing that qualifies has turned up.

In fact, the "official" reason for Iraq II has been changed precisely four times since the thing got started. Which is a fair indication that we have yet to hear the real, real reason for Iraq II.

Today in the papers, the Shrub tried to re-assert "Reason No. 3": the larger war on terror. He must think we can't count, or have extraordinarily short memories (and he may have a point there), but not this girl. The man's full of it. I doubt there's a thinking person on the planet who'd take the Shrub's word for the time of day.

Lucky you ... there wasn’t diddly to do at work today ...

Tina: “Libby, Well I haven't been reading the Huffington rag that's for sure.�

Please. That women makes me cringe. Let’s just never mind the stereotypes.

Tina: “This is hysterical coming from a pinko in denial.�

No, no, no ... it’s “dirty commie�, I told you.

Tina: “Have you ever heard of labor unions? How much legislation do you suppose they are responsible for?�

Quite a bit. But as I, and all my fellow wage slaves, are the chief beneficiaries, I just can’t get too worked up about it. But those coal-burning power plants that have got every third four-year-old in the middle west asthmatic ... I just don’t think they should be writing “clean air� legislation. Sue me.

Tina: “As a matter of fact, if you look at welfare, social security, education, funding for the "arts", and a million other "programs" enacted since the early sixties I think you'll find "influence fairly drips from them.�

This is just a lot of conservative mythology. Funding for all of the above is on the decline. Nor do any of these organizations have “Abramoff� kind of monies to throw around, and consequently don’t get the kind of attention such monies buy.

Tina: “I'm sure you recall John F. Kennedy's desire to fight communism...remember, he was the one who put us in Viet Nam. I'm sure if you try hard you can figure out the Khrushchev thing too.�

Yes, but this still does not explain how Mr. Khrushchev fits into the current conversation. I know the commies are your favorite buggaboo (next to those muslims, of course), but ... ?

Tina: "The whole Hitler...mindset"? "Proven totally ineffective"? Demonstrate that point please. It sounds like psychobabble to me.

Maybe politicobabble? Anyhoo, it’s very simple. If we’re fighting the “war on terror� in Iraq, as Rummy suggests, cause it’s an actual country (a la Hitler and his Germany), a place to invade and subdue (though we haven’t quite managed that, have we?), then what do we do about the Bali bombing, the Madrid bombing, the London bombing, the near London bombing II and all of our hit and run drivers? I got news for you, no invasion, no “war� would have forestalled any of the above. And all this anti-Islamist rant that you do, and Rummy does, it’s just makin’ it worse.

Tina: “The biggest problem America faces here at home is that you guys think this is a sociological problem...those po folks just need some kinda program or something. Probably been oppressed by the "military-industrial complex". It can't be that they have a "mind-set" that doesn't allow for them to play nice with others.�

You got it. I know it’s not as sexy as global carnage. Has absolutely no appeal on the primal level you seem to favor. And Lord knows, we really aren’t very good at it yet. But this is how civilized nations approach these problems.

Tina: Regarding The Busco Delay rant: You've heard the phrase "no there there"...I think your side invented it. Well, there isn't. The whole Valerie "blame the administration" Plame game was garbage from the start as we discovered for certain today.

We were talking about the “K Street Project� -- undue corporate influence on the Congress ... not Valerie. But we can talk about Valerie. I got caught up on NPR last night, and apparently, Fitzgerald knew that the “leaker was Armitage THE DAY HE STARTED THE INVESTIGATION. So, what were Libby and Rove doing, during all those grand jury appearances? It’s the new mystery.

Tina: Taking a strong and certain stand is something every male understands in his bones unless he has been oppressed into a state of feminist fluff from birth.

Ah, yes. Manly men. Sexy carnage. Primal stuff. Which is all very well if you want to live in a cave. Not me.

Tina: “The one thing men get is that taking a strong stand against a lethal enemy is the only option.�

If you’ve got a lethal enemy. The Versailles Treaty created a lethal enemy. The Marshall Plan disarmed two. The World Wars, I and II, were really beside the point. If you can subject your primal urges to this fact, we can make some progress.

Libby, Lucky you , no work today, but I guess somebody will pay you anyway...and it sure won't be a union!

I wasn't so lucky today but I'll give it a shot.

"When are you all going to let go of this WMD thing? It's certainly another of those ugly truths, but we've been "in country" for nearly four years now, and absolutely nothing that qualifies has turned up.

There are things that qualify but you aren't interested.

"He must think we can't count, or have extraordinarily short memories (and he may have a point there)"

Caught yourself and saved me the trouble, thanks!

"I doubt there's a thinking person on the planet who'd take the Shrub's word for the time of day."

I can imagine several million at least...try the bulk of listeners to the Rush Limbaugh show for starters, statistically they are among the most highly educated and informed people in the country and out of the country as well. I know you can't stand it, it's one of those UGLY TRUTHS!

"Quite a bit. But as I, and all my fellow wage slaves, are the chief beneficiaries, I just can’t get too worked up about it.

No kidding...this explains why you will always be a victim...I bet you DO feel like crap most of the time.

"But those coal-burning power plants that have got every third four-year-old in the middle west asthmatic ... I just don’t think they should be writing “clean air� legislation."

You mean the legislation enacted after Richard Nixon created the EPA? If you had anything other than a rotten attitude you would be very glad that you live in America where business has bent over backwards and paid the price to give us cleaner air than we've had since the sixties. Your suggestion for alternatives will follow your suggestion for fighting the terrorists. I won't be holding my breath.

"Funding for all of the above is on the decline."

Horsehockey...40-50 years of increasing funding carries a trillion dollar price tag for just one of them. if I had time I'd give you the stats. Welfare, because of the republican idea and resulting legislation signed by Bill Clinton has recently declined. The good news is the people who managed to get off the deadly program actually have a chance to become more than they ever dreamed and they have some dignity too.

"this still does not explain how Mr. Khrushchev fits into the current conversation."

Think of it as a box. It's a contextual thing.

"Maybe politicobabble? ... makin’ it worse.

We're NOT fighting the war in Iraq "cause its a country...a place to invade and subdue". What we do about the others is what we do about Iraq and it goes something like this, "This war will take a long time, perhaps twenty years...it will be faught in many ways on many fronts, some seen and some unseen". George W. Bush said that and it's been repeated in various and sundry ways by several people. You just don't listen...or don't want to hear...or, can't handle the truth!

,i>"But this is how civilized nations approach these problems.

Yes, as demonsrtated by Bill Clinton and the UN both of which were totally impotent. (definition; lacking in power, strength or vigor; dificient in capacity, weak, powerless). Unable to stop it and unwilling to acknowledge it. In that "civilized fashion" of corrupt deals and phoney posturing we all just wait for the next tragedy, oh boo hoo, but "I can't get too worked up about it". Such a childish view for a person who pretends angst over the victims of the world.

"undue corporate influence on the Congress

We've covered this...everybody has influence of some kind...BIG UNION has had tons for years...you won't give up yours so why should anyone else!

"It’s the new mystery.

I'm sure for you it is.

"Which is all very well if you want to live in a cave."

I live in a very nice house in America, land of the free and home of the brave...and their blood paid the price for my great good fortune and in my case, under Gods grace. When you actually do have to live in a cave, we'll talk. I'm sure there's a terrorist thug who could find you a new home...possibly in Syria or Iran.

"If you’ve got a lethal enemy.

It's back to "Mars Attacks" syndrome...there are none so blind...pick a variety. When you can answer the question, "How do you recognize an enemy?" then, and only then, will there be any progress.

I'm not sure you'd recognize a 'primal" urge if you had one but your "victim act" would put you in close approximation.

Tina: "There are things [WMD] that qualify but you aren't interested."

I'm interested. Name some. I fact, I peruse the very internet sites from which you get this horsepucky. We have certainly run across bits and pieces, remnants of production capabilites, empty gas cannisters, but nothing, absolutely nothing, that was ever any threat to us. But these bits and pieces are more than enough to keep you hopeful ... hopeful ??

Tina: "You mean the legislation enacted after Richard Nixon created the EPA?"

Indeed. That very legislation which BushCo has been valiantly attempting to irradicate every year it's been in office. Which is how coal-burning, asthma producing powerplants come to be writing clean air legislation, a fact which you have yet to refute.

Tina: "40-50 years of increasing funding carries a trillion dollar price tag for just one of them. if I had time I'd give you the stats."

No you couldn't. And remember, we're not talking about 40-50 years. We're talking about the preceding six. We're talking about the current Congress's attempt to shut down the PBS, which they really couldn't do, because at this point, PBS gets only that last 10% of their operating funds from the federal coffers. But it's the principle of the thing: we got Philistines and fascists in the hen house.

Overall, Tina, your response was disappointing. Lots of personal abuse, but nothing for a reasoning girl like me to really get her teeth into.

"PBS gets only that last 10% of their operating funds from the federal coffers."

I don't know what the break down for PBS funding is but I've watched a few times and seen a lot of grant money from those big horrible folks who make up that industrial complex you hate so much and since Big Bird and friends is a huge winner in the "profits" game it's long past time for PBS to be getting off the dole even for 10%...and I haven't heard a single complaint about the "corrupt money" they take from those big corporations either.

We're back to the "influence" subject. Tell you what. You get your green guys to back off, I'll get my corporations to back off and maybe we can all live in peace. If your guys had all the influence we'd be scratching notes on stone and sending them to each other by cart.

As far as funding for programs goes...every year, six back or forty, has seen increases in funding for programs. Liberal politicians like to play that little game of calling a cut in the amount of increase a cut, as if the program was to receive fewer dollars. They love to deceive people with word games. The funding always goes up. Welfare has a several trillion dollar price tag. It's because of that "war on poverty" that we've never pulled out of or won.

My response was at least on par with your silly accusations, most of which have been rebutted with facts again and again. They just seem to confuse you.