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September 18, 2006

About Iraq - YOU NEED TO READ THIS

Submitted by Nick F. (Iraq War Veteran) for your approval.....

Writen by James Phillips

December 2, 2005 | |

MYTH: The U.S. is making no progress in defeating the insurgency in Iraq.

QUOTE: “I'm absolutely convinced that we're making no progress at all, and I've been complaining for two years that there's an overly optimistic—an illusionary process going on here.� –Rep. John Murtha on “Meet the Press,� November 20, 2005

REALITY: The U.S.-led coalition and the Iraqi government have made substantial progress in eliminating insurgent strongholds in Fallujah, Mosul, Najaf, Samara, and Tal Afar, and in many smaller towns in the western Anbar province along the Syrian border. Most of Iraq is secure from major guerrilla attacks, particularly the predominantly Shiite south and the predominantly Kurdish north, which actively support the Iraqi government. Most insurgent attacks are mounted in the heavily Sunni Arab central and western portions of Iraq, although small numbers of insurgents continue to launch terrorist attacks, including suicide bombings at soft targets, throughout the country. Outside of Iraq’s Sunni heartland, which benefited the most from Saddam Hussein’s Sunni-dominated regime, the insurgents lack popular support. Their terrorist strategy has failed to intimidate Iraqi Shiites, Kurds, Turcomans, and Assyrians, who altogether comprise more than 80 percent of Iraq’s population.

The Iraqi army and police forces are growing larger, better-trained, and more effective. The Iraqi Army and security forces grew from just 1 operational battalion in July 2004 to more than 120 today. Over 200,000 trained and equipped Iraqis are now playing an increasingly active role in rooting out insurgents. While only one battalion is rated at the U.S. Army category "Level One," about 40 are at “Level Two.� Level 2 battalions are capable of fighting "with some support"—usually just logistics and air/artillery support—from American forces. These units patrol their own areas of operations, relieving U.S. troops to perform other duties. The cities of Najaf and Mosul are now patrolled exclusively by Iraqi security forces, as are large portions of Baghdad.

There are now six police academies in Iraq and one in Jordan training 3,500 Iraqi police every ten weeks. Today the vast majority of Iraqi police and army recruits are trained by Iraqis, not Americans, the result of systematic efforts to “train the trainers.� Since the January 30th elections, no Iraqi police stations have been abandoned under attack, as once happened frequently, because police have fiercely resisted attacks even when outnumbered and outgunned, confident that help would come from 13 provincial SWAT teams and coalition forces.

Unlike during several military offensives in 2004, Iraqi security forces now are strong enough to garrison and control cleared areas, making the Bush Administration’s recent adoption of a “clear, hold, and build� security strategy possible. Iraqi forces were able to take a leading role in the successful September 2005 offensive at Tal Afar, which involved 11 Iraqi and 5 Coalition battalions.

The increasing effectiveness of the Iraqi security forces has inspired optimism among the Iraqi people. This is reflected in the growing number of intelligence tips from Iraqi civilians. In March 2005, Iraqi and coalition forces received 483 intelligence tips from Iraqi citizens. This figure rose to 3,300 in August, and to more than 4,700 in September. According to a survey from early November, 71 percent of respondents believed that the Iraqi security forces are winning the war against the insurgents, while only 9 percent believed they are losing. The data was gathered from Iraqi callers who were passing intelligence tips to the Iraqi National Tips Line, which was created to provide Iraqis with a safe and anonymous means of passing on information about insurgent activity to their own government.

MYTH: The U.S. is making little or no political progress in Iraq.

QUOTE: "It is surely a joke of history that even as the White House sells this weekend's constitutional referendum as yet another ’victory’ for democracy in Iraq, we still don't know the whole story of how our own democracy was hijacked on the way to war." –Frank Rich, “It’s Bush-Cheney, not Rove-Libby,� New York Times, October 16, 2005

REALITY: Iraq has made remarkably rapid progress in establishing the foundations of a democratic political system after more than three decades of dictatorship. Pessimistic critics of U.S. policy have been repeatedly wrong in predicting that Iraqis would not be ready for the June 2004 transfer of sovereignty, the January 2005 transitional government elections, the writing and approval of a constitution by October 2005, and the December 15 elections that will create a government that will lead Iraq for the next four years.

The insurgents’ inability to block the January elections, combined with a simmering resentment of their indiscriminate violence, has led many Sunni Arabs to reconsider their boycott of the political process. Even the Association of Muslim Scholars, an anti-American group, has called for Sunni Arabs to join the Iraqi security services. The insurgents’ political base is weakening as it becomes clear that they are opposed not just to the American presence, but also to the elected government.

Despite terrorist attacks and threats of intimidation, 8.5 million Iraqis voted in the January elections; almost 10 million voted in the October referendum on the new constitution; and turnout for the December 15 elections is expected to be even greater. Many Sunni Arabs realize that they erred in boycotting the January elections and are likely to vote in far larger numbers on December 15. More than 300 parties and coalitions have registered for the coming elections. Iraq’s political process is messy and slow, like in other newly democratic political systems, but a new class of political leadership is emerging that, over time, can build a national consensus and drain away support for the insurgency, which is dominated by Islamic radicals and diehard loyalists to Saddam’s hated regime.

Ironically, while Americans appear to be growing more pessimistic about Iraq’s future, Iraqis are growing more optimistic. According to a poll conducted by Iraqis affiliated with Iraqi Universities, two-thirds of Iraqis believe they are better off now than under Saddam’s dictatorship, and 82 percent are confident that they will be better off a year from now than they are today. An October survey conducted by the International Republican Institute found that 47 percent of Iraqis believed that their country is headed in the right direction, while 37 percent believed that it was going in the wrong direction. And 56 percent believed the situation would get better in six months, while only 16 percent believed the situation would get worse.

MYTH: The Bush Administration exaggerated the threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction (WMD) to justify the war.

QUOTE: “In his march to war, President Bush exaggerated the threat to the American people.� –Senator Edward Kennedy (D-MA), quoted in U.S. Fed News, November 10, 2005

REALITY: The Bush Administration acted on the basis of intelligence conclusions that were widely shared by previous administrations and foreign governments. President Bush was not the first American president to emphasize the long-term threat posed by Iraq. President Bill Clinton justified Operation Desert Fox, a three-day U.S. air offensive against Iraq, by invoking the threat posed by Iraqi WMD on December 16, 1998:

Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors; he will make war on his own people. And mark my words he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.

Clinton’s National Security Council advisor Sandy Berger warned of Saddam’s threat in 1998, "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.� Former Vice PresidentAl Gore said in 2002, "We know that [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." CIA Director George Tenet, a holdover from the Clinton Administration, declared that the presence of Iraqi WMD was a “slam dunk.� (For more on the political campaign to paint intelligence mistakes as conscious lies, see Norman Podhoretz’s excellent article, “Who Is Lying About Iraq?,� in the December issue of Commentary.)

The intelligence services of Britain, France, Russia, Germany, and Israel, among many others, held the same opinion. French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin explained his concerns to the UN Security Council on February 5, 2003: "Right now, our attention has to be focused as a priority on the biological and chemical domains. It is there that our presumptions about Iraq are the most significant. Regarding the chemical domain, we have evidence of its capacity to produce VX and Yperite. In the biological domain, the evidence suggests the possible possession of significant stocks of anthrax and botulism toxin, and possibly a production capability." The German Ambassador to the United States, Wolfgang Ischinger, said on NBC’s “Today� of February 26, 2003, "I think all of our governments believe that Iraq has produced weapons of mass destruction and that we have to assume that they still have—that they continue to have weapons of mass destruction.�

The Bush Administration may have been wrong about Iraqi WMD, but so were many other governments, few of which have been accused of lying. Moreover, three independent commissions have found that there is no evidence that the Bush Administration exaggerated the intelligence about Iraqi WMD.

In July 2004, the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee issued a report with the following conclusions:

Conclusion 83. The Committee did not find any evidence that Administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities. …

Conclusion 84. The Committee found no evidence that the Vice President's visits to the Central Intelligence Agency were attempts to pressure analysts, were perceived as intended to pressure analysts by those who participated in the briefings on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs, or did pressure analysts to change their assessments.[1]

In March 2005, the bipartisan Robb-Silverman commission reached the same conclusion:

The Commission found no evidence of political pressure to influence the Intelligence Community's pre-war assessments of Iraq's weapons programs. As we discuss in detail in the body of our report, analysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments. We conclude that it was the paucity of intelligence and poor analytical tradecraft, rather than political pressure, that produced the inaccurate pre-war intelligence assessments.[2]

The July 2004 Butler Report, issued by a special panel set up by the British Parliament, found that the famous “16 words� in President Bush’s January 28, 2003, State of the Union address were based on fact, contrary to the claims of former ambassador Joseph Wilson, who has alleged that Bush’s assertion was a lie. Bush said, “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.� The Butler report called Bush’s 16 words “well founded.� The report also made clear that some forged Italian documents, exposed as fakes after the President spoke, were not the basis for the British intelligence that he cited or the CIA’s conclusion that Iraq was seeking to obtain uranium.

MYTH: The war in Iraq has set back the war on terrorism.

QUOTE: “It’s the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time.� –Senator John Kerry (D-MA), September 6, 2004

REALITY: Some critics contend that Iraq is a detour in the war on terrorism and a distraction from the hunt for Osama bin Laden, but this criticism is greatly overstated. The war in Iraq is a different type of struggle than the war against Al Qaeda. It has required different kinds of resources. Strategically, the U.S. is certainly capable of engaging in multiple operations on a global level.

True, some intelligence assets were diverted from the search for bin Laden to Iraq. But bin Laden had already gone underground, hunkering down on the Afghan-Pakistan border eighteen months before the Iraq war. And there is no evidence that bin Laden would have been caught had there been no war in Iraq.

One often overlooked benefit of the war is that Iraq is no longer a state sponsor of terrorism. This is important because the United States cannot win the war on terrorism unless it eliminates or at least greatly reduces state support for terrorism. Al Qaeda, often held up as the premier example of “stateless terrorism,� actually was helped tremendously by the support of states. The Taliban regime in Afghanistan and the radical Islamic regime in Sudan provided crucial shelter that allowed Al Qaeda to develop into the global threat that it is today.

Now Osama bin Laden has lost a potential ally, if not an actual ally, in Saddam’s regime, which had a long and bloody history of supporting terrorists and many reported contacts with Al Qaeda. Moreover, free Iraqis increasingly are joining the fight against terrorism. Osama bin Laden’s associates in Iraq clearly are worried about the expansion of the Iraqi security forces. A 2004 message from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, later was named Al Qaeda’s leader in Iraq, lamented Iraq’s progress: “Our enemy is growing stronger day after day and its intelligence information increases. By God, this is suffocation.�

The war to liberate Iraq, coming after the successful war to liberate Afghanistan from the Taliban, has disabused terrorists of the notion that the United States is a paper tiger. This perception was created by American withdrawals, following terrorist attacks, from peacekeeping operations in Lebanon and Somalia that did not involve vital American national interests.

Another gain from the war is the effect that it has had on other rogue regimes. Libya was induced to disarm because of the Iraq war. In fact, Libyan leader Muammar Qadhafi told Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi that he moved forward after seeing what happened to Saddam’s regime. Iran, also pushed by international pressure, decided to open its nuclear program to more inspections. Syria, caught red-handed in the assassination of Lebanon’s former Prime Minister, now is isolated and on the defensive.

While it is true that some Islamic extremists are going to Iraq to join the fighting, many of them would have ventured elsewhere to slaughter civilians had the Iraq war never occurred. As well, the indiscriminate murder of innocent Iraqis by Zarqawi’s terrorists has undermined Al Qaeda’s appeal throughout the Muslim world. Zarqawi’s November 9, 2005, bombing of three hotels in Jordan outraged Jordanians and other Muslims, even those who previously had been sympathetic to Al Qaeda. While the war in Iraq has helped Al Qaeda’s recruitment efforts, on balance it has helped the war on terrorism by depriving Osama bin Laden and other terrorists from receiving any future support from Saddam’s regime.

Now that Iraq has become, by Al Qaeda’s own reckoning, a crucial front in the global war against terrorism, the United States and its allies cannot allow Zarqawi’s thugs to establish a permanent base in Iraq. From there, Al Qaeda would be in a better position to penetrate the heart of the Arab world, threaten moderate Arab regimes, and disrupt Persian Gulf oil exports, than it enjoyed under the protection of Afghanistan’s Taliban regime from 1996 to 2001. Finally, any “exit strategy� from Iraq that is perceived by Muslims to be a victory for Al Qaeda would boost the group’s ability to recruit new members far beyond the current rate.

MYTH: The war in Iraq is another Vietnam.

QUOTE: “Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam.� –Senator Edward Kennedy (D-MA), April 5, 2004

REALITY: Iraq is Iraq. Most Iraqis share American goals of building a pluralistic, democratic, and prosperous Iraq. Even many Sunni Arabs who boycotted the January elections due to terrorist intimidation now are participating in politics. The Iraqi insurgents do not have the military strength, popular support, political unity, ideological cohesiveness, strong foreign allies, charismatic leadership, or alternative political program that the Vietnamese communists possessed. The insurgents are divided by ideology, religious affiliation, and factional rivalries into separate groups, including remnants of Saddam’s Baathist regime, Sunni Islamic radicals, Shiite Islamic radicals, tribal forces, and foreign Islamic radicals, such as Abu Musab Zarqawi’s Al Qaeda faction.

Tensions appear to be growing between some of the insurgent groups—particularly animosity towards Zarqawi’s group, which has killed hundreds of civilians in indiscriminate suicide bombings and provoked a backlash that other groups fear will undermine the insurgency. While many insurgent factions have been hurt by the improved flow of intelligence to government forces since the January elections, Zarqawi’s group has suffered disproportionately heavy losses. More than twenty of his lieutenants have been captured or killed since the beginning of the year, and Zarqawi himself reportedly was almost captured twice. His predominantly non-Iraqi forces are so concerned about being betrayed by Iraqi informants that they reportedly confiscate cell phones in the areas that they control.

Unlike the insurgency in Vietnam, which had a relatively broad base of support, the Iraqi insurgents are actively supported by only a minority of the Sunni Arab population, which makes up 20 percent of the Iraqi population at most. The Iraqi insurgents cannot defeat the Iraqi people, but can only play a spoiler role.

Vietnam veterans who have served in Iraq see little comparison between the two wars. A USA Today reporter who interviewed many Vietnam War veterans now serving in Iraq wrote, "They see a clearer mission than in Vietnam, a more supportive public back home and an Iraqi population that seems to be growing friendlier toward Americans."[3]

MYTH: The U.S. has little allied support in the war in Iraq.

QUOTE: "With the exception of British troops in Basra, we are essentially going it alone across the rest of Iraq." –Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ), quoted in U.S. Fed News, October 25, 2005

REALITY: Those who argue that the U.S. fights “alone� in Iraq ignore the contributions of the Iraqis themselves, who have committed 212,000 soldiers and police to fighting the insurgency and have suffered the largest number of casualties. In addition, the U.S. has the strong cooperation of the 26 other nations that have deployed troops in Iraq. In addition to 155,000 Americans, there are 8,000 Britons, 3,200 South Koreans, 3,000 Italians, 1,400 Poles, 900 Ukrainians, 450 Australians, 400 Bulgarians, and smaller contingents from Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Japan, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Mongolia, Netherlands, Norway, Romania, and Slovakia.

MYTH: Iraqi women were better off under Saddam's regime than under the new constitution.

QUOTE: “It looks like today—and this could change—as of today, it looks like women will be worse off in Iraq than they were when Saddam Hussein was president of Iraq.� –Howard Dean, CBS “Face The Nation,� August 14, 2005

REALITY: Iraq’s new constitution mandates that women hold one-quarter of the seats in Iraq’s parliament and protects them against gender discrimination, unlike Saddam’s capricious legal system. Iraqi women now enjoy more political power than they did under Saddam’s dictatorship, which was run exclusively by men.

Saddam’s 1980 invasion of Iraq and 1990 invasion of Kuwait resulted in the deaths of so many men that women were brought into Iraq’s labor force to replace them. But this economic advancement came at a terrible price in repression. Entire Iraqi families were jailed as collective punishment for alleged crimes against the state. Saddam’s goons tortured, killed, and raped women to punish their husbands and male relatives for political opposition. Those who argue that Iraqi women were better off under Saddam ignore the terrible crimes against women that were carried out by his regime.

MYTH: Iraq's economy is getting worse.

QUOTE: “Basic services such as electricity have never been worse and the economy of Arab Iraq is in ruins.� –Andrew Gilligan, The Evening Standard (London), February 14 2005

REALITY: Reconstruction and economic progress have come relatively quickly, compared to the reconstruction efforts in postwar Germany and Japan, and this is despite continued insurgent attacks on Iraq’s infrastructure and economic targets. Unemployment remains high, estimated by the government at 28 percent. But U.S. policy did not create that unemployment.

Iraq's economy is beginning to thrive. Real GDP is expected to grow 3.7 percent in 2005 and 16 percent in 2006. Iraqi per-capita income has doubled since 2003, according to the World Bank. Private investment, bolstered with capital remitted from family members abroad, has fueled rapid growth in the private sector. More than 30,000 new businesses have registered with the authorities since the war, and thousands of unregistered businesses are believed to have been established.

Iraq’s infrastructure, neglected by Saddam’s regime for many years and damaged in three wars triggered by Saddam, has been strained to its capacity. But the situation is gradually improving. Since the end of major combat operations, over 2,000 megawatts of power have been added to the Iraqi power grid, enough for 5.4 million homes. While some Baghdad residents had more electrical power under Saddam’s regime—because it diverted power from other parts of Iraq—many Iraqis now have much greater access to electricity than before the war.

James Phillips is Research Fellow in Middle Eastern Studies in the Douglas and Sarah Allison Center for Foreign Policy Studies, a division of the Kathryn and Shelby Cullom Davis Institute for International Studies, at The Heritage Foundation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq," U.S. Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, July 7, 2004, p. 284-285.

[2]Charles S. Robb and Laurence H. Silberman, “The Commission On The Intelligence Capabilities Of The United States Regarding Weapons Of Mass Destruction,� March 31, 2005, p. 50.

[3] Steven Komarow, “Vietnam vets in Iraq see 'entirely different war,’� USA Today, June 21, 2005.

Posted by Post Scripts at September 18, 2006 06:21 PM

Comments

This may be taken as an accurate (or somewhat hopeful) summary of the state of affairs as of December 2, 2005, but that was awhile ago. The situation has deteriorated quite a bit.

With respect to the New Iraqi Army, there have been numerous defections, desertions and mutinies since December. And since December, an alarming number of "death squads" have been seen doing business in army and/or police uniforms.

Because we don't have the capability to stick around all of those insurgent hot spots, all of the towns that we "cleaned out" and left, are now dirty again.

But this is my favorite:

"Since the end of major combat operations, over 2,000 megawatts of power have been added to the Iraqi power grid, enough for 5.4 million homes. While some Baghdad residents had more electrical power under Saddam’s regime—because it diverted power from other parts of Iraq—many Iraqis now have much greater access to electricity than before the war."

This is a very cagey paragraph. I like it very much. He says: "enough for 5.4 million homes", but he does not say those 5.4 million homes have it, does he? Because today, if you send a crew out to repair power lines in Baghdad, they'll get shot at. And it really doesn't matter how much the plant can generate, if the electricity don't get to the houses.

And the rest of the paragraph is terribly, terribly vague, don't you think? I've heard that blowing up transmission towers is still a very popular pastime, even in the south. And we haven't got enough people on the ground to watch them all.

Posted by: Libby at September 18, 2006 07:14 PM

I was just surfing and pulled this out of an AP article:

"Tribal leaders and clerics in Ramadi, capital of violent Anbar province, met last week and set up a force of about 20,000 men "ready to purge the city of these infidels," [the insurgents] Sheik Fassal al-Guood, a tribal leader from Ramadi, told The Associated Press.

"People are fed up with the acts of those criminals who take Islam as a cover for their crimes," he said. "The situation in the province is unbearable, the city is abandoned, most of the families have fled the city and all services are poor."

An indication of the situation came Monday when two suicide car bombers attacked a police station in Ramadi, ...."

This is good. We need to see a whole lot more of this. So we can split. But how much you want to bet that BushCo makes a fuss. This force will indeed be indigenous, not trained by us or under our control. We shall see.

Posted by: Libby at September 18, 2006 07:45 PM

Nick, This is an incredible piece..thank you so much for sharing it.
It makes sense to me that the country will reach a point where progress is so great in terms of opportunity and services, education and employment that the desire to make it work will only grow stronger and stronger. The example will be great in the region. Freedom is contagious.

Pictures of our troops with the people, and especially the children, make me so proud of the work our guys are doing and because of that, so proud to be an American. These are the best ambassadors of peace anyone could ever ask for and get.

There are many definitions of love but the example being set by our military is indescribable. All of the best elements are present. Standing against those who seek only death and destruction...fighting to protect the innocent people...helping them to become equiped to defend themselves...sharing what we know of freedom under democracy and the opportunity it brings...creating the opportunity for real life, real participation...offering a helping hand.

That this story has not been written is shameful and the nonparticipating media that has missed this real opportunity to be a force for good in the world will lose in the end. The political detractors, the critics, the negative discouragers and liars look like fools to many of us now, but they be remembered as fools in the long run.

Posted by: Tina at September 18, 2006 08:09 PM

Hey Libby, good to see you back. Are you disengaging from the other post we were talking on?

You do bring up an interesting point about the power. I will say that where I was at in Iraq, even remote villages had power, usually run by local generators. I would be curious to see the stats on local generators, since many of the villages didnt recieve power before we got there.

Even so, I gave you lists which mentioned upwards of 25 - 30 major points. If this is the only one you take issue with, than Im not sure how you can claim that things have "deteriorated" quite a bit since then. There have definately been problems, but the question was what progress have we made. I think I answered that question sufficently, and I kept the anecdotes to a minimum.

As to the group of Iraqis standing up, I guarantee that if you see anyone upset about this it will be liberal law makers. For a very simple reason. It is the liberal influence that demands that we keep tabs on every force out and about. Since we will be the ones blamed if a group of citizens decides to take matter into their own hands. I would love to see more of this, but as long as the left will demand taht we subvert middle eastern culture to impose over night a legal system that took us 225 years of peaceful development to fully realize , such groups will not be permitted to take care of their own. That is, Im afraid the reality of it.

Posted by: Nick Freitas at September 19, 2006 01:01 PM

Nick: "Even so, I gave you lists which mentioned upwards of 25 - 30 major points. ... I think I answered that question sufficently,...."

And I think I rebutted it sufficiently: December 2, 2005. TODAY, the military commanders of our army are insisting the the civilian commanders of our army get a clue, or a plan, or SOMETHING !!

Posted by: Libby at September 19, 2006 05:08 PM

Libby, if you think that a 1 paragraph response, where you give nothing but your opinion is adequate response to upwards of 3 pages of evidence, then your not being very reasonable.

I agree that the civilian leadership needs to make changes. So do the military commanders. But that change doesnt include cutting and running from Iraq.

You wanted a list of achievements in Iraq. You said that the left wasnt focusing only on the bad. I responded, and that remark above is what i get for going to the trouble of showing you what you asked for. This is sad. Look, your belief that nothing is good about Iraq or ever was is what you believe, because you NEED to believe that.

You cannot keep expecting me to provide examples to the contrary if your just going to say, "well, I dont think so..." and then move on like you have rebutted the argument by vertue of "Libby has spoken".

Why dont you try LISTENING to what the commanders are saying. Because to date, I dont think Ive heard one of them say, "yeah we should get out now". Or.."What we really need is more restrictions" or "You now what would be great, if you guys on the left would push to declassify the the army interrogation manual". I aso dont see them saying, "hey thanks for all the support Ted Kennedy, it really helps the mission when you repeat over and over again how the military is the problem over there."

Libby, Im sorry but youll have to do better than that rebuttal if you wat to be taken seriously. Anyone that wants to go back to our original post from Sept. 1st (The one with the picture of the Iranian Prez.) and follow this debate can easily do so, and see that I have tried to give adequate responses, while yours have grown steadily dismissive and scarce.

Posted by: Nick Freitas at September 20, 2006 03:48 AM

Tasker: Plenty have spoken out once they've retired.

Indeed, this war has been remarkable for the number of retired military who've called their Congressperson to express deeply felt concerns about the competence of our civilian leadership.

And while General A. is in honor bound not to say anything in public, Seymour Hersch says that they're all jumpin' up and down in private and makin' a hell of a noise.

Posted by: Libby at September 20, 2006 06:51 PM

Nick: "Anyone that wants to go back to our original post from Sept. 1st (The one with the picture of the Iranian Prez.) and follow this debate can easily do so, and see that I have tried to give adequate responses, while yours have grown steadily dismissive and scarce."

Nick, you're not really thinking that this, here, is serious business? You very graciously posted up you article, and I baldly pointed out that every source in it is at least a year old. That during that year the casualty figures on the Iraqi side are through the roof, because in that year, a civil war has commenced. That you will not see this is understandable, but it doesn't make it any less true. But, as I reported elsewhere, General A. is being publicly hopeful, so I suppose we must be too.

P.S.: Concision is the soul of wit. And it keeps your audience from wandering off.

Posted by: Libby at September 20, 2006 07:02 PM

Libby, if you had bothered to wander down to our previous conversation you would see that I presented a much bigger list than the one that was posted by Jack up here. So nice try but no dice. You asked for a list of accomplishments. It was given. You then said you didnt believe it. You offered nothing close to the evidence you required of me, how shocking.

The civil war is definately your reality.

As far as retired military types,really, can you pleae list for me the the former military personnel that have spoken out against it? I dont mean those who werent involved in it like Zinni, or even Shenseki. Please list the field commanders who have actually served in Iraq.

Yes we ARE JUMPING UP AND DOWN BEHIND CLOSED DOORS!! We are tired of washington restricting us. And those restrictions that have been the most damaging have orginiated on the LEFT. Ill keep saying it till I am blue in the face, but it apparently does NO GOOD.

Posted by: Nick Freitas at September 20, 2006 09:48 PM

I want to emphasize once more the importance of answering my full claim in our previous post on Sept. 1st. If you want your opinions to be taken seriously, than you simply cant walk away from an answer, to your question, with out responding.

Posted by: Nick Freitas at September 21, 2006 12:50 PM

Oh, Nick. It may be important to you, but I really don't think it's important to anybody else. Was there something particular, sourced in the last month or two or even three, you wanted to bring up again?

Some report came out today to the effect that those liberated Iraqis are perpetrating more tortures than ol' Saddam ever did. How's that for cheery news? I really do think we should get the hell out of there. Let the groady beggars sort it out for themselves, and we can get seriously to work on port security ... and figuring out how we're going to get by on a decidedly uncertain oil supply. There's a project for that mythologically sensible, self-reliant American we hear so much about.

Posted by: Libby at September 21, 2006 07:42 PM

With your last post, you have summed up your ability to take me on, on this subject.

You asked for a list. You recieved one, and now that you can provide no substantial contradiction other than "some report" or your opinion, the rest of us are supposed to sit back and accept it. I am willing to bet that you did not even bother to go back and check the longer list I provided for you. You certainly haven't shown anyone here how the list I provided was irrelevant.

You simply stated that one of the lists I gave you was old. Great, does that mean that the hospitals mentioned have been burned down? Does it mean that the Power Plant isnt working now? If it did, you would have mentioned that, but you didnt. For the simple reason that the list I gave you covered a long period of time. Why wouldnt it? You asked for a list of things that covered progress in Iraq. That means that anything that we have done, which has stuck, is relevant. If your point was, taht none of those things have stuck, then it is up to you to provide examples. I seriously doubt you will make the attempt.

Libby you make the case against yourself with such comments.

What is interesting, is that you take your opinions so seriously that you dont feel that they should be scrutinized. As soon as they are you move on, and then claim that it really isnt all that serious.

Who exactly do you think you are fooling with this approach. You seem to think it is important before your argument has been adressed, and then not so much after the fact.

What everyone who has been wacthing this debate realizes is that you are unwilling to either concede or present counter evidence that your theorys are relevant.

You provide no facts, figures, personal experience, etc. etc. You provide your opinion, with nothing to substantiate it. You then choose to play down the personal experiences, education and training of others who oppose you. Despite the fact, that those of us here who actually do have real world experience when it comes to security, still go the extra mile to provide you with tangible evidence that our opinions are based on more than just our personal and highly relevant experience.

You have proven incapable of staying on topic when debating. You gauge your responses based on only a portion of what is said, and then attempt to drive the argument in adirection you think will be more favorable. When that fails you repeat the process. The problem with this strategy is that after an extended period of time people start to pick up on it. Outsiders start to wonder why you dont just "answer the question". That is where you find yourself right now. I sincerely hope that you will recover, but my personal experience suggests that you will not. You will simply become more and more frsutrated and your comments will reflect that frustration.

Again, i hope that in the future you will feel it necessary to provide those of us who disagree with you the same level of evidence that we provide you with.

Posted by: Nick Freitas at September 22, 2006 12:20 PM

Nick, In that whole long thing, I didn't find as single example of a conventional military force whupping a guerrilla movement. And I didn't see anything to refute the fact that Baghdad is NOW much to dangerous now for water pipe laying or powerline running, or even a trip to the hospital. If the water and the power can't get to the houses, it's not worth much, is it?

All I do is listen to the news (the real news, not FOX) and I got lots more ammunition than you. In fact, the hospital thing reminded me ... for a change of pace, NPR did a feature on Iraqi Arabs refugeeing up into Kurdish territory (which the Kurds now baldly refer to as Kurdistan) and, among others, they profiled a young woman doctor who was endangered by both factions in Baghdad. The Shiite miltiamen were giving her a bad time about her blue jeans, and the Sunnis are still financing the war effort via kidnapping. She knew of doctors who had been ransomed by their families, and she did not want to share in the experience. And so, a hospital doesn't do you much good, if the doctors are scared to go to work.

You spent that whole long thing telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. But you have yet to prove it.

Posted by: Libby at September 22, 2006 06:20 PM

I have been absent from comenting here for awhile but this caught my attention:

"...they profiled a young woman doctor who was endangered by both factions in Baghdad. The Shiite miltiamen were giving her a bad time about her blue jeans, and the Sunnis are still financing the war effort via kidnapping."

This snapshot seems to be presented as if it represented all that is going on in the region. It is not. In addition it is not ALL Sunnis or ALL Shiite's that engage in such activities, but I suppose that also is not reported on NPR...the "real" news source.

And how dare those "bald" acting Kurds give their region a name! As freedom and democracy spreads in the region we are probably going to see many changes in borders and names. Wait till you see what Iranians have planned for Iran.

Posted by: Tina at September 22, 2006 11:50 PM

Your kidding right?

I give you what I did, and you respond with this?

Were never going to agree on this. But Ill tell you what. You do some analysis of the information i have provided and what you have provided and tell me, from an objective view point, who has made the better case.

I dont know what to tell you about the guerilla thing. If you dont see how all of those powers used their standard military forces ie. Roman Legions, Zulu Impis, Mongol Archer cavlry, British Infantry/Cavlary, US Cavlry to defeat guerrilas ie. Gaelic tribesman, Chinese rebels, The Mahdi army of Sudan, and Apache braves, etc. etc. Well I dont know what else I am supposed to do. But you are being highly unreasonable. This should be an easy concesion on your part. You got in over your head and made an unreasonable statement which I adequately challenged.

If you would like some reading on it you could try "War in the Shadows" by Robert Asprey. He goes in depth on the history of guerrilla warfare.

Again, if conventional forces were incapable of defeating insurgencys then there would have been no empires.

Here is another example. When US forces defeated the Philipinos after the Spanish American War.

Now if your position is that as long as a nation eventually gains its independance it defeated the military forces of the country it was fighting, Im afraid youre having a problem with simple understanding.

Different insurgent groups have come about over periods of time, some are put down (Philipine Insurection), some manage to win decisive military victories (Viet Mihn against the French), and many manage to survive long enough and cause enough frustration to out last the political will of their opponents (Algerian resistace groups against the French).

I have more than made my case on this Libby. Your responses on these last couple of subjects have simply been..."Youre wrong, Im right, I heard about a report, I saw a thing on the real news, You dont know what your talking about..."
That sort of thing just doesnt cut it. Again, Libby the best thing you could do, would be to admit that you just got in over your head on this one and move to a subject your a little more familiar with.

Posted by: Nick Freitas at September 23, 2006 07:36 AM

Nick, Your exchanges with Libby are illuminating and instructive, not just about warfare but also about the male/female relationship. I'm clear we were made this way for a reason but at times I find myself reduced to laughter...how do you guys manage with such amazing focus and patience?!!! It's a wonder to behold.

Posted by: Tina at September 23, 2006 10:34 AM

Tina: "Nick, Your exchanges with Libby are illuminating and instructive, not just about warfare but also about the male/female relationship. I'm clear we were made this way for a reason but at times I find myself reduced to laughter...how do you guys manage with such amazing focus and patience?!!! It's a wonder to behold."

Kissy, Kissy, Smooch, Smooch!!

Posted by: Libby at September 25, 2006 01:45 PM

Nick: "... Roman Legions, Zulu Impis, Mongol Archer cavlry, British Infantry/Cavlary, US Cavlry to defeat guerrilas ie. Gaelic tribesman, Chinese rebels, The Mahdi army of Sudan, and Apache braves, etc. etc."

That's funny, my history book says that guerrilla warfare is a recent development, the last hundred years or so, South America. Hmmm.

Nick: "Again, if conventional forces were incapable of defeating insurgencys then there would have been no empires."

And the Romans are still with us??? Even if this pertained, which it doesn't. All them ancient empires met with a combination of internal rot, and equally barbarian hoards.

Nick: "When US forces defeated the Philipinos after the Spanish American War."

Again, that's not what I hear. There have been small but fervent rebel forces operating in the Philippine jungle ever since. A situation which AQ has unhappily exploited to their benefit.

And do you have to always finish up with the patronizing horsepucky? It completely undercuts anything of substance you may have previously said.


Posted by: Libby at September 25, 2006 02:03 PM

Libby? You still there, or have you determined that your position is no longer worth defending on this topic?

Posted by: Nick Freitas at September 25, 2006 02:42 PM

Well Libby I would say that you are reading bad history books.

The history books I read say that guerrilla warfare is a tactic that has been used since time memorial.

Yes the Romans eventually fell. Are you claiming that in their 1000 year history they never defeated guerillas? that is historically insupportable. Your statement, if i need to remind you,(paraphrasing) was that conventional forces cant defeat guerrillas. So any historical evidence, no matter how old, which counters that statement is relevant. Sorry, if you want to rewrite history, youl have to go somewhere else.

After the Philipine Insurrection the Phillipines returned to relative normalcy. If there were a couple of guerrillas in the jungle refusing to accept defeat, and you accept that as victory, well there are some people out there who still call themseleves Nazi's so I guess we lost WWII. Come on Libby. And i guess we hadnt defeated the Japanese untill we had rounded up those last guys on an Island in teh middle of the Pacific.

You know Libby I would love to read your history book. Please let me know which one says that guerrila warfare is new. Because there are some military historians that would be fascinated to know that they have been wrong on this topic.

Libby I cant believe this contention has gone on this long. If you honestly can sit there and believe that if a couple people in a jungle are still active that they have won? That is patently ridiculous.

Look Libby, this isnt that hard, you made a mis-statement, admit it and move on.

Posted by: Nick Freitas at September 26, 2006 04:04 PM

"Kissy, Kissy, Smooch, Smooch!!"

Yep, I nailed it!

Posted by: Tina at September 28, 2006 08:29 PM

No more fight left Libby?

Posted by: Nick Freitas at October 2, 2006 07:11 PM

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