POST SCRIPTS

Hmmm. Actually, she gets her figures from a new book out: "Haunted by Combat: Understanding PTSD in War Veterans Including Women, Reservists, and Those Coming Back from Iraq", by
Daryl S. Paulson and Stanley Krippner available from Amazon and published by an outfit called Praeger Security International. I googled its advisory board, and it's an impressive list, but there is, alas, a member of the Brookings Institute on it. Who'd a thought?

While you were all busy having fun on the blog tonight I was expressing my frustration in another piece that was inspired by Steve...for the exact same reason, Jack. See A.A.P.D. above.

Well, Libby, Dr. Paulson does have some impressive credits. A decorated Marine from Viet Nam. Dr. Kripner does have that book on how to be a psychic going for him. Tell me Libby, what was the input from these individuals and the person on the board from Brookings? You see, I can read a web site too. I think the point here is, again, someone against the war is using a book to bolster their own view, un-filtered. And you have shown that you will do an about face and parrot what ever the person says, with minimal research. Reservist, are citizen soldiers, since the cuts in the military by Clinton 1 (I pray there is no Clinton 2) They (the reservists) have had to shoulder an inordinate amount of the military function. Lets talk about the women, wasn’t there a big push to put women in combat, and wasn't there a lot of resistance, led by experts in the field of combat. Not because there aren't women who can do it, but because it presents a whole different dynamic to the military function, and I would offer, an increase in the number of PTSD cases. My beef with the whole PTSD is that it is over diagnosed. I had a stroke and a doctor diagnosed me with it. I found another doctor. My beef with this argument is that the politicians and you Libby don't like or want the military and, it seems, will use any statistic or argument to debase it.

Well said John, Libby once again missed the point, and choose to completely ignore the majority of the post by Steve.

Good point Steve, but don't expect any Libby to argue it in full.

Ah, Nick. Steve: another of those "particular soldiers", may very well be having a high old time in Iraq. But Steve's high old time is irrelevant to the angst, anxiety and expense engendered by that 25% of returning Veterans who is psychically f**k*d up.

Especially if all you uprighteous conservatives continue to refuse to properly fund the VA.

Some of us are paying attention.

Especially if all you uprighteous conservatives continue to refuse to properly fund the VA.

Name one.

...irrelevant to the angst, anxiety and expense engendered by that 25% of returning Veterans who is psychically f**k*d up.

Exactly what is the big deal? People get sick, they have problems, they loose limbs while involved in all kinds of endeavors...rock climbing for instance....driving down the road...taking a shower...doing drugs. Why should combat...with it's inherent known risks be any different? Get honest and get REAL!

Paying attention yes, but to what? You dismiss the commentary of people who have actually been there as the ranting of the invading horde, but you embrace anyone who comes out to support your narrow and biased view. I don't think Nick or Steve would argue that the things one sees in war can cause anguish, but how come the majority of the combat arms soldiers support what we are doing? Even the ones coming back physically f@#$d up! I know you like to think that these are just mindless un-educated war mongers, but the facts don't support your position. Many of the people in Combat arms hold multiple degrees. I know it fits into your narrow view for the military and anyone who supports it to be pigeon holed in what ever name the left decides to use, nazi, fascists etc. But perhaps if you were really paying attention you would realize that the VA is quite well funded and doing a very good job even in the mental health field. But go on Libby, don't clutter your arguments with facts, just repeat what ever the talking point of the day is. What is your experience with the VA? CNN? The Daily Show? mine comes from the care family members have received, and I never once saw John Stewart there. And I, having been paying attention myself, noticed you have contradicted yourself at least based on one of your other posts on this site, don’t Steve and Nick’s opinions deserve our respect as they have actually taken an oath?

Steve,
You questioned Congresswoman Woosley’s statistics, and then you throw out the statement, “Ask your run of the mill combat soldier and you will find that not only do they not feel any real debilitating strain from being in Iraq, but they think the mission is worth continuing.” Where did you get your statistics? How can you propose to back up this statement?

In my experience, and I do have some, since it is my generation that is over in Iraq fighting this war so you oh-so-patriotic conservatives can drive your SUV’s and sit on your computers typing about how wonderful you are and how horrible liberals are because they believe in things like VA benefits and equal opportunity. (Sorry tangent there) In my experience, my friends whom have come back from fighting in Iraq may say they are “fine” – but there are some marked differences in their behavior. Most noticeably their inability to deal with stress and their propensity towards violence when provoked (and when I say provoked, I mean not getting ketchup with their fries, and flying off the handle). It is my understanding that these symptoms are part of the definition of PTSD. And no person I have talked to, whom has been in Iraq, wants to go back, not one.

You shout support for the troops, then basically call them wimps because they are mechanics or perhaps administrative specialists in a war zone, instead of out shooting people. I am sorry, and I may be a bit wimpy, but if I lived in a place where it was a necessity I did not leave the walls of a place protected by numerous defensive perimeters – I would find that to be a bit stressful. Having grown up in America, I have had the luxury of living in places where, for the most part, I did not have to be scared to travel anywhere, or do anything. So this sudden change in scenery would distress me immensely.

I guess the thing that bothered me the most about your post, is that you are attacking someone who is working towards getting help for the soldiers who have been harmed by their experience in Iraq. I gather that you are in the armed forces yourself, and that is commendable, and if you are lucky enough to escape your tour without harm, that you are truly blessed, but since you probably have some sort of camaraderie with the people you serve with, wouldn’t you want them to have resources if something bad happened?

I thought the conservative mantra was to support the troops unconditionally. What happened?

"Name One."

Well, ol' Wally comes immediately to mind. When are you gonna get rid of him? I don't vote in this county. It's up to you.

Take for instance the 2005 Defense appropriations bill:

$70.2 billion for research, development, test and evaluation

$19.89 billion for the Defense Health Program

Now, you know how cynical I am, what a thorougly jaundiced view I've acquired, but what this looks like to me is that we're spending three times the money on ... toys, on doodling, on very expensive experimentation, than we are spending on the health of our soldiers.

Pick a year. It don't change.

All right! Meagan! The really galling thing is that the VA has been chronically underfunded for 20-30 years. It's nice to see them get some press, but distressed ex-soldiers don't live in Butte County. Or if they do, they fend for themselves; there are no services. More likely, they live in the Bay Area, and camp out at Fort Miley. God in Heaven!, it's a pit.

God in Heaven!, it's a pit.

I've seen a few myself...the buildings are old and the military is always bare bones...but it's "free".

If your really concerned about all of this I'll be expecting you to come out AGAINST universal healthcare which will be this times several gazillion!

we're spending three times the money on ... toys, on doodling, on very expensive experimentation, than we are spending on the health of our soldiers.

Those "toys" and "doodling" are part of the reason that casualties, including civilian casualties, are so low in this war...bigger perspective...widen the lens!

Especially if all you uprighteous conservatives continue to refuse to properly fund the VA.

Shall we try Horsehockey this time.

Once again Libby, you have managed to miss the point, believing yourself to be more cutely informed than some one who apparently has service in teh war on terror.

As for Meagan, listen to what the guy says, not just what you want to hear! The congresswoman was clearly just another anti war politician trying to clothe her beliefs in "pro soldier" rhetoric.

We would have ALLOT less need of more A funding if libs would get on board with defense funding. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

"Those "toys" and "doodling" are part of the reason that casualties, including civilian casualties, are so low in this war...bigger perspective...widen the lens!"

No, sweetness. This is why the Dow is lookin' so good, and why Walter Reed is lookin' so bad. Why the investor class is oh, so happy, and why the legless are starrin' at the mold.

No, sweetness. This is why the Dow is lookin' so good, and why Walter Reed is lookin' so bad. Why the investor class is oh, so happy, and why the legless are starrin' at the mold.

Corporations that design and produce military weapons are part of the stock market but only a small fraction of it...but your assertion that weapons manufacturing is what's driving the market up is dumb, dumb, dumb. TAX CUTS...particularly those on dividend income plays a much larger roll. it gives all those rich folks pocket change to invest.

And before you get all pinched faced about the investor class you might remember that most Americans are in that class...most likely that includes even you...and if those investors (you, for instance) don't want to have money invested in weapons manufacturing then arrange it so that you aren't.

Your cynical viewpoint will be overlooked as the "legless" look beyond the "mold" to a quick rehab and great success for the rest of their lives.

And Libby...quit whining about the wealthy...it makes you look silly. Be content where you are or do something to change it...and leave the affairs of others to them.

Libby, what real world experience do you base this off of?....oh thats right, none.

Tina is once again, right on target.

Those toys also keep our soldiers protected. Once again, your true side comes out, one minute all worried about funding for the VA, the next, wanting to cut the very R@D which produces superior equipment that keeps us alive.

You are exactly why liberals should not be setting priorities for defense spending, you are clueless as to what is important.

Is anybody quarreling with the value of R&D? I'm quarreling with the ratio 3:1. I mean, really Tina, because this ratio is in your favor ... you don't care that returning Veterans ... particularly those psychologically wounded ones ... can just bloody well fend for themselves? Not one of you went off to see if there actually were Butte County Veterans Services to thwart my argument. There are a couple ... if you'd bothered to look. They're largely volunteer organizations and aren't good for much more than "hand holding." No money for counselling, housing, drugs, anything like that. But you really don't give a flying what-have-you, do you? The current allocation of resources is in your favor ... and all's right with the world.

Geez.

Libby, once again clueless.

It is complete and utter bull that volunteer organizations have little in the way of funding or that they provide little other than hand holding. Where do you get this stuff!!

The VFW, American legion, Warrior foundation, etc, etc all provide a great deal of services, scholarships, counseling etc.

You really should be ashamed of the misinformation you spout with such authority.

Who is debating funding R@D...YOU ARE, when you directly compare it to toys, and playing. The ratio is completely reasonable given the high cost of research and development. That R@D is exactly why when we go to war we lose relatively few people. Imagine the hordes of disabled vets you would get to exploit if we didn't enjoy air superiority, or better armor, or early warning systems.

I am at a loss to imagine anyone I know who speaks with such authority on a topic they clearly know nothing about.

I spend a great deal of time on these pages writing responses to your accusations hoping that those who get some of their information here are not mislead by your ignorance passed off as knowledge and concern.

And another thing.

Your comment about "Butte County Veterans Services" is misleading. You make it out as if since there are few "Butte County Veterans Services" that hordes of "psychologically wounded" vets are going with out.

Guess what Libby, the VA is a federally run organization. the VFW, AL, AMVETS, and the rest are also national organizations.

Im not sure what you mean by "Butte County Services" Do you really expect Butte County to have its very own veterans department? I mean, this would fall right in line with the liberal "create a government agency" for every problem, solution, but it isn't all that practical for what it appears you are proposing.

I think it is amazing that the only times liberals like yourself seem to care about troops is when they provide photo ops inside caskets, or when you can use them as a "victim group". I mean after all Libby, aren't all of us soldiers simply repressing our "pillaging" mentality?

Ill take Tina's version of support over yours any day of the week.

...really Tina, because this ratio is in your favor ... you don't care that returning Veterans ... particularly those psychologically wounded ones ... can just bloody well fend for themselves?

What good does your "caring" do them Libby? You can care all day and it won't do a thing for them.

We can't build a facility in every berg across America so if Vet's want help they get to travel a bit. If they really want help they will find a way to get it...if not they might instead whine to someone like you who will hold their hand and tsk tsk with them.

The thing is...there are "services" up the whazoo in America...most of them don't make house calls for any of us. We get to take some personal responsibility for anything we want or valus.

But you really don't give a flying what-have-you, do you?

I submit that you only "give a flying what-have-you" because your "plan" is to spend someone else's time and money to fix the problem while you take credit just for being on the "side" that "cares". Sorry I'm not buying it.

The current allocation of resources is in your favor...

My favor? The current allocation, if it is indeed as you have suggested, would be appropriate to the current problems we face.

As to our veterans in need...there are several organizations...private organizations...that would welcome your participation or donation..."Paralyzed Veterins" is one...that is, IF you really care so dang much.

You know Libby, Libby the more I think about this, the more enraged I get.

Ive got news for you and those of your ilk...simply because every time people like you stub your toe,it requires a billion dollar program, and 42 skilled professionals to hold your hand, and tell you how special you are, doesn't mean that the rest of us need it.

Stop projecting your own weakness on us. When stuff goes bad for those of us fighting on the edges of civilization we seldom require the same sort of attention people like you seem to need when your favorite contestant gets voted off the island.

God help us if we are ever dependent on people like Libby to protect us.

"Ive got news for you and those of your ilk...simply because every time people like you stub your toe,it requires a billion dollar program, and 42 skilled professionals to hold your hand, and tell you how special you are, doesn't mean that the rest of us need it."

We're not talking about me, piglet. Or you either. We're talking about people who've spent way too much time in a hundred degree heat and under fire ... not to mention the cruddy quarters and filthy food. They have to do this because we bloody well aren't going to. Huh-uh. No way. I know a sucker's game when I see one. And knew one. I've been posting on Chico venues since before this horsepucky started. The shrub is jumpin' up and down: WMD! WMD! WMD! And I'm jumpin' up and down: BS! BS! BS! 9/11 was indeed quite traumatic, but the one thing's got not diddly-squat to do with the other!!!!! I was right and you were wrong. You was suckered, good and proper. Ahhhh, I feel better now.

Howsoever, the very least we can do is provide properly for these unhappy people when they get back.

Now, it's very splendid that you yourself have not gone off the deep end, but some of the folk do. Have you no compassion? Now, stereotypically, career soldiers are known for their lack thereof. I mean, how else could they do what they do. You see, you have your little niche in society and I have mine. Mine involves looking out for people who need looking out for. Yours involves, well .... And we are fighting over resources. You'd like to have bigger and better means to kill people, and I'd like to have the veteran living down the block in a reasonably healthy emotional state.

But as Tina as reiterated shamelessly, "conservatives" would rather spend our tax dollars on stuff that pays them dividends, on that old military-industrial complex. This is sad.

The shrub is jumpin' up and down: WMD! WMD! WMD! And I'm jumpin' up and down: BS! BS! BS! 9/11 was indeed quite traumatic, but the one thing's got not diddly-squat to do with the other!!!!! I was right and you were wrong. You was suckered, good and proper. Ahhhh, I feel better now.

Tell that to the enemy...the one that is in nearly every country in the world and has been gradually migrating to same for the past 30 years, not to mention blowing people and buildings up for their religious fanaticism. They don't think it's unrelated..it's all part of the same Bigger picture that you refuse to see. So be right and continue to be smug...it changes absolutely nothing.

Have you no compassion?...You see, you have your little niche in society and I have mine. Mine involves looking out for people who need looking out for.

Sure you do. You have compassion when it's easy to have compassion...that's probably why you are so smug. Where is your compassion for the people that terrorists continue to oppress and murder...the ones who have as their goals things like: "wiping Jews and Christians off the face of the planet"...beheading journalists and captured prisoners...stoning women to death for refusing to wear that horrid hot garb or talking to a man other than her husband? Defending them by defeating terrorist cells is a much more difficult "niche" than your pity party on someone elses dime approach.

You'd like to have bigger and better means to kill people

I never thought I'd say something like this to anyone, but...are you really this stupid? The men and women who serve in our military do so with honor and pride. They can do so because they are not part of a waring army. Our objectives are defensive...we act as liberators for those being oppressed and harmed from those who are waring. The desire to run the world is heady stuff Libby...you "peacemakers would just roll over and let them take it all...then where would your peace be...and what freedom would you enjoy? Certainly not the freedom to be compassionate.

Now, stereotypically, career soldiers are known for their lack thereof.

NO GREATER LOVE...than that a man lay down his life for his brother...paraphrasing the MAN! Your understanding of the depths and colors of love is miniscule.

the very least we can do is provide properly for these unhappy people when they get back.

Or...they could provide for themselves...people do it all the time. Also refer back to Nick's post: The VFW, American legion, Warrior foundation, etc, etc all provide a great deal of services, scholarships, counseling etc. The services are there for anyone who really wants help...and a whole lot of the people who provide these services...who actually participate are conservatives.

But as Tina as reiterated shamelessly, "conservatives" would rather spend our tax dollars on stuff that pays them dividends, on that old military-industrial complex. This is sad.

For the record there are a whole lot of companies making other really neat stuff and they also pay dividends. Some of them make medical supplies that help patients get well...burn patients...patient with leukemia...patients that have broken backs and bones. Some make sports equipment or camping equipment...things that make all of our lives quite enjoyable. I'm more than happy to let a company use my money to bring a product to market. Sometimes I do it even when there are no dividends...imagine that! But you don't think about these things. You fail to understand the importance of investment and you've decided that making money is evil and so you are filled with scorn. Interesting since your preference for big government requires, indeed sucks up, every dollar it can...by evil means I might add. There is nothing equitable or fair about our tax structure. Business gives you have a choice...buy or don't. Government gives us no choice...and that my dear is the height of greed and money grubbing.

So get it straight...conservatives would rather our tax dollars were spent only on those things which government is Constitutionally bound to do. Conservatives would rather the books for said tax dollars were kept properly and every dime spent well. You liberals don't mind corruption and waste as long as you can TAKE what you want from others so you can play at being big kind hearted philanthropists...it's all about you and your feelings. Talk about SAD.

Finally, you are free to drop out anytime...go live in a cave with a squat in the woods for a bathroom and grubs for many a meal. You might make a good slave...the dark ages are the plan you know. If you think you hate our military your going to love living under Sharia law...hank a hair and they'd be done with your mouthing off...women don't have a voice in that world..just body parts. Think about it...and then tell me who has the greater capacity for love...you and your smug harumphing or the men and women who would defend you from such as these?

Wow, this is too easy...I knew I could do it. I knew if I just pushed Libby a little further she would go right over the edge!

Thank you Libby, you have done my work for me.

LOL

The old Libby patented "Your wrong, Im right!! Im sensative, your a killer and nothing more, bush lied kids died" argument.

So does this mean you are ready to debate Iraq again Libby, since I so clearly demonstrated a superior knowledge of the conflict the last time we debated it?

Are you ready to prove you are right, or are you content to just continue your childish diatribe?

You have clearly demonstrated your inability to understand the mind of a volunteer.

In addition you have also demonstarated your inability to process information as it comes to you from people in that hundred degree heat, eating the food, in the terrible quarters. How incredibly arrogant of you. To presume to know their minds, intentions, and feelings while systematically refusing to hear them; instead favoring the words of those who arent fighting in 100 degree heat, living in their mansions in Massachusets, dining on caviar.

Your opinions put to paper are a true blessing to the conservatives who come here. Its always nice to see a lib self destruct.

It appears Steve has really struck a nerve...Im curious Libby. Is this the same Libby that so confidently rebuked Athena on her rudeness of questioning a soldiers patriotism and motives just because he disagrees with you? Is this the same Libby that said that it shouldnt comes as a surprise when a soldier has a mind of his own?

Im curious because it would seem that Athena did not subject her guest to any where near the same insult that you have demonstrated here. Even if she had, it would have been directed against a lone individual, not the military as a whole as you have done.

For the purpose of future debate, which Libby should we refer to when we address her in the future?

If you dont feel a little silly and ashamed right now Libby, you should.

“WMD WMD WMD WMD,” Libby, sometimes you sound like a loon.

I don't know about you Jack, but when I was going to serve a warrant to search in a bad guy's house for evidence of a crime, I didn't give em four minutes notice that I was coming, let alone four months.

Even a Liberal should be able to figure that one out. And I'm just talking about the four months prior to invasion. Of course it does make sense that the same group who wants to let the enemy know when we will leave; regardless of “Job completion” would also be the ones who want to let em know we are coming.

But then again, you're probably right Libby, where would he hide them in that region of the world, there is no one in the area that would be interested in taking that risk...It might mean a strongly worded letter of dis-approval from the UN. That's like a black mark on your permanent record for crying out loud!

Libby, can you tell us what weapons have been found in Iraq? Hint: you probably wouldn't see it on any of the "Major" news networks. Have there been any? I know the answer, do you?

Do you know what Al Qaeda link there was with Iraq Prior to our invasion? There were members allowed to be in the country, and have training camps. And my understanding is that the training provided was in “acts of terror.” Did you know this Libby? A country with numerous sanctions against it, who was not only violating those sanction, but had been suspected by not only this administration, but the prior administration, to be actively seeking materials to make weapons of mass destruction. Not only did these administrations think that there was credible evidence to support this, but also members of the Senate, who had access to the intelligence.

And if you believe that the intelligence provided was postured by the Bush administration, to support invading Iraq. I would remind you that the smartest woman in the world had access to her own sources of intelligence, and she also believed that there was credible evidence of this assertion.

I'm not talking a link with 9-11, as far as I know, no one in this administration ever made that claim, if you know of a case where they have, please site it. I know that has been promulgated by the left before but it just seems like repeat the lie enough, people believe the lie.

Now I realize that the intelligence on the Middle East available to these political figures probably pales in comparison to the information at Libby’s disposal. I would just like to hear a source for any of these claims!

My source is the resolution for the authorization to use force, given to this administration. Along with numerous public statements made by politicians before, during and immediately after the authorization was given.

Please Libby, site a source for any of your claims

Libby citing sources to support her claims? That would be interesting.

The shock might kill me.

Well there is an incentive for you Libby, if you are actually able to stick around and justify your comments, the surprise might kill me!

That would be one less "compassionless career soldier" around, which Im sure would make your world a better place.

The question is, will Libby put her money where her mouth is.

I pay my taxes. I only quibble with how their spent. We're back to that 3:1 ratio ... with which I most definitely quarrel.

You don't want to pay at all. This is sad. If you won't provide them facilities, what are the poor deranged veterans to do? Back to basics? What?

(don't tell me ... bootstraps ... I knew you could get blinders for horses ... but people?)

Blinders? Libby you are blinded by your own rhetoric. You pay taxes, Yes we all pay taxes. Your argument is the Ratio of funds spent. That isn't an argument for underfunding. What is it when you can't argue facts it breaks down to equality?

I'm sure it has been mentioned by Nick or Steve or someone else, but for those involved in the war, the quality of the equipment or toys as you have charactarized them, can greatly enhance their ability to avoid being physically and/or Psychologically injured.

Again, if you are just arguing ratios then say that. It comes down to who is actually looking out for and cares about the welfare of the military. And I can tell you your side falls seriously short.