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February 28, 2008

Libertarians v. Conservatives

by Nick F.

Republican Party was a union of traditional conservatives, libertarians, objectivists and the usual hodge podge of moderates which can be found in any political party.

The vast majority of our intellectual platform came from the conservatives and libertarians since moderates generally just take from others what sounds good to them and develop their own luke warm positions.

On the conservative side you had men such as Russell Kirk, Barry Goldwater, and Ronald Reagan. These individuals were influenced by people such as John Adams, and Edmund Burke.

On the libertarian and objectivist side you had people such as Milton Friedman, David Nolan, and Ayn Rand. These individuals were heavily influenced by people such as John Locke and Adam Smith.

In 1971 many libertarians split form the Republican Party and formed their own, national, Libertarian Party. Since then they have sought to advance their political agenda apart from the Republican Party.

This break took place in large part over three key policy issues.

(1) Social Policy and the government’s right or role concerning intervention into individual behavior. Or in another sense the “Legislating of Morality”. (2)Foreign Policy and the limits to which government should use military force; i.e. Peace Keeping, Declaring War, and Preemption policy. (3) Economic policy, specifically dealing with free trade concepts.

Now while these issues may sound momentous, it is important to understand that conservatives and libertarians share many of the same principles. Where they differ is in the extent to which those principles are applied, or the practical exceptions to them.

In this battle of ideas I personally place the score as…

Social Policy: Winner = Conservatives
Foreign Policy: Winner = Tie
Economic Policy: Winner = Libertarians

We’ll Start with Social Policy.

Burke probably provides the best and most articulate defense of the role of tradition in society and politics. Conservatives have long argued for official policy which attempts to provide some defense for traditional “American” values. You see this demonstrated on 3 major fronts.

1. The role of Religion and tradition in society.
2. The Pro-Life movement
3. The defense of traditional marriage

While conservative social policy is not limited to these issues, it is fair to say that they have provided much of the foundation for both conservative policy, and libertarian opposition.

The reason why I give the victory to the conservatives on this issue is simple. I believe that history has demonstrated that to attempt to separate the social and traditional from the economic and political is fool hardy.

I simply do not think that you can overlook the importance of culture and tradition and its influence on the economic and political. If we truly believe that this American experiment is unique, then how can we insist that it exist apart from our social traditions and institutions?

The founders were decidedly pro- religion. This does not mean that they were all Christian, or even religious themselves, but all of them with perhaps the exception of Thomas Paine, realized the vital role that religion plays in society.

Concerning abortion. First of all, no self respecting believer in the Constitution, nor any admirer of the law can expect to maintain any semblance of intellectual honesty, while supporting the legitimacy of Roe vs. Wade. It was amongst other things, incredibly bad law, and perhaps the most poignant example of “legislating from the bench”.

Abortion according to simple scientific and legal language could be defined as the systematic and premeditated destruction of innocent human life. And as US law is currently interpreted, you could add to that statement”…for no greater purpose than personal convenience.” If there is one thing conservatives and Libertarians should be able to agree on, it is that government’s first and most important responsibility is the protection of innocent human life. It is time for Libertarians to recognize, as Ron Paul has, that since human life does in fact begin at conception, then that life should be entitled to the most basic rights laid out in the Declaration of Independence.


The protection of traditional marriage is fundamental to protecting families; and the protection of the family is essential to the preservation of the culture which provided us with the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. Is it really so odd that we choose to reward that institution which has been so critical to the advancement and nurturing of society? Are we really expected to throw out thousands of years of social history in the name of false equality? I certainly hope that we have not reached a position of such historical ignorance and cultural relativism that we would presume to embark on such a reckless path of social engineering. If a constitutional amendment is necessary to protect this institution, than so be it.

Moving on to foreign policy…

Foreign policy has to be considered a tie, if we are to assume that Ron Paul speaks for a large constituency within the Libertarian movement.

America should not be fitting the bill for the rest of the world’s defense. We should not feel compelled to engage in every hot spot through out the globe, in order to maintain stability. And we are NOT responsible for bringing democracy to the world through military engagement.

What we are responsible for is the protection of US interests and security. In a world where small non state actors can have an influence on the largest economy in the world in a period of 45 min. we must be prepared to act decisively when appropriate. While we should not bear the burden of providing security to the world, we must be keen to understand when coming to the aid of an ally serves not only their interest but our own. And above all we must understand that large wars, in many cases, could have been prevented by much smaller military engagements, had the leaders of the time had the determination and foresight to fight them. This is more evident now then it has ever been in history, and the trend will continue in its current direction.

This will at times require what is commonly refferd to as "nation building". In such cases we should only embark on such a difficult and demanding path if it can be adequately determined to be in the long term security intrests of the United States.

And finally economic policy...

Conservatives such as Russel Kirk and other have advocated protectionsit trade policy for purpose's ranging from preserving culture to ensuring the strength of domestic industry.

While there is an argument for subsidizing the defense industry in order to ensure the production of critical equipment during time of war, applying the same principle to other non essential industry ranging from sugar production to various manufacturing industries is counter productive.

Arguments ranging from economic expediency to morale obligation have failed to explain why we should refuse to let free market principles work on an international scale.

Attempting to protect ones culture by preventing international trade ignores the connection between economic strength and national as well as cultural solvency. Economic power is essential to military power, cultural dominance and individual liberty.

On the other hand, attempting to ensure domestic industrial prowess through government protection or subsidization undermines the free market by preventing competition and supporting buisness at the expense of the consumer. And lest we forget, it is the consumer which drives production, any other arrangement leads to waste.

Libertarians have been screaming this at the top of their lungs for decades now. With the exception of the Reagan administration, to many "conservative" presidents have given in to the temptation of using government to "solve" economic problems.

The only way the United States can hope to maintain its economic strength is through a fundamental return to free market policies and respect for private property at all levels. This means a large downsizing of government, the gradual dismantling of our entitlement programs, lowering taxes, deregulation etc. We cannot continue down a path of wealth redistribution and an economic policy based off of "need" rather than ability.

Where do we go from here...

Niether the Conservatives nor the Libertarians have benefited from the descension between our two similar ideologies. So our question is simple; what is the most effective way for conservatives and libertarians to advance their policies.

I advocate a libertarian return to the Republican Party. After close to 40 years, the Libertarian Party has been unable to change the political direction of the country in their favor. And the absence of badly needed libertarian intellectual pull has resulted in a slow war of attrition between conservatives and moderates for the heart of the Republican party. We are now seeing an amoglamation of social coservatism with "moderate" economic policy. The new conservatives bear little resemblance to the traditional conservatism of Ronlad Reagan. Some conservatives are feeling the pull from the moderates of the party, and in order to hold their ground on issues such as abortion, gun rights, tax cuts, etc. they are giving ground on government spending and entitlement programs.

In short, I as a conservative, fighting for a party that used to belong to both of us, am calling for support. We are fighting a delaying action; an action that will most likely fail if we do not recieve the badly needed reinforcements from our intellectual and ideological allies.

Libertarians are perhaps he last group of people who require a history lesson, but I will be so bold as to remind you all of the history of representative government throughout history. It has been said that democracy has a shelf life of 200 years. At close to 230 we have beaten the odds, so to speak. But you all understand that the trends are not in our favor. Socialism is making its case in America stronger than ever. Once a large sector of the population has warmed to the idea, that they may steal from their neighbor to enrich themselves, and do so under the color of morale superiority; economic and political collapse is the only logical endstate.

Understanding the present conditions ask yourself what your responsibility is to our country, your principles, your posterity and yourself. Then ask what is the most effective way to fight for those principles. Edmund Burke said it far better than I have ever read or heard since...

"It is not enough in a situation of trust in the commonwealth, that a man means well to his country; it is not enough that in his single person he never did an evil act, but always voted according to his conscience, and even harangued against every evil design which he apprehended to be prejudicial to his country. This innoxious and ineffectual character, that seems formed upon a plan of apology and disculpation, falls miserably short of the mark of public duty. That duty demand and requires, that what is right should not only be made known, but made prevalent; that what is evil should not only be detected, but defeated. When the public man omits to put himself in a situation of doing his duty with effect, it is an omission that frustrates the purposes of his trust almost as much as if he had formally betrayed it. It is surely no very rational account of a mans life, that he always acted right, but has taken special care, to act in such a manner that his endeavors could not possibly be productive of any consequence.

Edmund Burke - "Thoughts on the Cause of our Present Discontents" (1770)

Posted by Post Scripts at February 28, 2008 10:07 PM

Comments

from: MikeW

Thanks Nick for your very insightful and thoughtful digest comparing libertarian and conservative ideas. You are so right in that there are is a great amount of agreement between the (small “l”) libertarians and the conservatives. Unfortunately, the Republican Party of today is not very conservative (especially in deed). Also, the (large “L”) Libertarian Party has not been a very effective advocate for the libertarian ideas of our founding fathers. Barry Goldwater wrote “The Conscience of a Conservative” in 1960. As I understand it, many of Mr. Goldwater’s views were much more libertarian than those espoused by the “conservatives” and Republicans of today. If the Republican Party had stayed with his conservative views, the libertarians may not have split off as you pointed out.

On economic policy, I think you’re right on when you said “The only way the United States can hope to maintain its economic strength is through a fundamental return to free market policies and respect for private property at all levels. This means a large downsizing of government, the gradual dismantling of our entitlement programs, lowering taxes, deregulation etc. We cannot continue down a path of wealth redistribution and an economic policy based off of "need" rather than ability.” Now, the only question left is how much do we need to downsize government? Should we reduce it by 50%, 75% or 90%?

On foreign policy, It’s certainly very important, but, because of lack of available time, let’s skip this issue right now and consider social policy.

You said you thought that conservatives win on “social issues”. Let’s look at principals involved. People talk about conservatives wanting to “Legislate Morality”. I think it’s important to differentiate between morals and mores. Virtually all religions embrace basic moral principals that people should not murder, steal or lie. Mores are values that vary from religion to religion, and seem to change from society to society and evolve throughout history. Many religions have different edicts about whether a person should eat fish on Friday, how many wives are acceptable, etc., etc., but they pretty much all agree on moral principals and steadfastly preach against murder, theft and lying. Libertarians believe passionately in importance of personal freedom and responsibility. The main purpose of the U.S. Constitution was to set up a government to help us protect our freedom through laws that protect our life, our liberty and our property. Our founding fathers thought it was very important that we protected be FROM the government. As you know, the Constitution prohibits the federal government from doing anything other than the specific granted powers. libertarians strongly believe that you can trust a free people and free market vastly more than government. We place a very high value on personal freedom as long as one’s actions don’t affect the freedom of others.

Let’s look at how these main moral principals and our Constitution relate to some of the social policy issues you address.

Concerning abortion. It is wrong to murder a human being, period! It seems to me that the important thing here is when does “human” life begin. There are many religious and personal opinions. Does it not become a human life until a child is born, at the beginning of the 3rd trimester, when it’s viable and expected to live or at the time of conception? Some even think birth control is a sin. This is a question that is difficult, but very important. I’m not smart enough to know the answer. Dr. Ron Paul has delivered thousands of babies and believes that human life begins at conception. I would put a lot of weight on his belief and the opinions of other medical leaders, religious leaders and parents. I certainly think it’s far too important a question to be decided by the politicians in power today.

Concerning the definition of “marriage”. As I stated above, I think there are a few moral absolutes and that “moral relativism” is just not acceptable. However, when you mention “cultural relativism” isn’t this more a matter of mores and not morals? I think we do have a definite American Culture and American civilization, but I don’t think we can legislate what our culture should look like. I don’t think the Constitution gives any special status to married couples and therefore, in accordance with the 10th Amendment, the federal government shouldn’t either. Congress has passed laws favoring marriage. It seems that one of the big reasons the gays, etc. want to redefine marriage, is so that they can get in on this favored status that has been granted to married folks. Why can’t we just keep marriage privately defined as between a man and a women? Why can’t we have “domestic partners” receive the same special treatment as married folks? I totally agree that the traditional family is very important to our society. I think the weakening of the family has a lot more to with welfare and other government programs than it has to do with legalistic definitions.

Concerning political party affiliation. There is certainly a rapid moment today towards socialism and totalitarianism that George Orwell described in “1984”. Do you think today’s Republicans have the wisdom, the will, the strength or the skill to reverse this trend? Since the Libertarians have had very little success in getting libertarians elected to office, it is tempting to think that, if they returned to the Republican Party, maybe they could better advance the cause of freedom. Or, would their principles be buried by the RINOs, NeoCons and political opportunists?

Bottom line – As you observed, the socialist agenda has been very successful in recent times. I really believe that conservatives and libertarians of good conscience want the same things for our society. We just have to figure out how to turn the tide. We certainly have the intelligence and resources – we just need the will to make it happen.

Posted by: MikeW at March 6, 2008 10:20 AM

Thanks MikeW for responding to Nicks post. I'll let you and Nick continue discussing the individual issues but I wanted to address the last two paragraphs because they address my purpose in blogging at Post Scripts. You said:

Concerning political party affiliation. There is certainly a rapid moment today towards socialism and totalitarianism that George Orwell described in “1984”. Do you think today’s Republicans have the wisdom, the will, the strength or the skill to reverse this trend? Since the Libertarians have had very little success in getting libertarians elected to office, it is tempting to think that, if they returned to the Republican Party, maybe they could better advance the cause of freedom. Or, would their principles be buried by the RINOs, NeoCons and political opportunists? ** Bottom line – As you observed, the socialist agenda has been very successful in recent times. I really believe that conservatives and libertarians of good conscience want the same things for our society. We just have to figure out how to turn the tide. We certainly have the intelligence and resources – we just need the will to make it happen.

I think we are fools to divide over single issues or nuances in positions when we face the tsunami that is liberal policy and change to the very structure and intent created by our founders. Reversing this mess will take decades of struggle on many fronts and in many ways...sound familiar? The enemies we fight are quite similar.

People don't like sudden change, and we don't want to create chaos, so we must learn patience and perseverance. We must be dedicated to making the case for our republic, educating people both old and young. The task is formidable. We are ultimately responsible for our dilema because have failed in this important endeavor leaving the education of our children to liberal influence and thought for the most part.

I fear we will lose some important ground because of our slavish dedication and stubborness with respect to our ideology. We need to keep our eyes on the end goals and accept setbacks and roadblocks as part of the process.

We just have to figure out how to turn the tide. We certainly have the intelligence and resources – we just need the will to make it happen.

YES! Do what you can every day. the opportunities present themselves if you are open to the possibilities. Thank you MikeW for sharing your thoughts with all of us.

Posted by: Tina at March 6, 2008 11:11 AM

from: MikeW

Tina, I really appreciated the perspective you expressed. You certainly had it right in that “we face the tsunami that is liberal policy”. All to often we certainly do get way to involved in “single issues or nuances in positions”. You’re probably right saying that people don’t like sudden change (even though there seems to be a lot of support for Obama’s “change” theme and to Ron Paul’s (much more specific) proposals). It is important though to have ultimate goals and a vision that we can agree on. Then, instead of demanding all or nothing, we could pursue steps that will move us towards that vision. We do, after all, live in a democracy and have to progress at a pace that is comfortable for most folks. And, because we live in a democracy, we need to accept the fact we may not be able to convince the vast majority to go all the way to what we think the exact end result should be. Hopefully though, we would be progressing in the right direction instead of the down the slope that the “useful idiots” are taking us now.

I wonder if there is a group of us could agree on a vision that would really inspire us.

Posted by: Mike Wacker at March 6, 2008 10:09 PM

Mike you're right, people are excited about the word "change" in this election.

Obama's version of change has not been clearly defined, leaving me with the impression that the real desire is for "relief" more than change. Who can blame them, "war is hell," especially when it has been waged as much at home against our troops and our president as in the actual war zone.

The promise of goodies and freebies that the Dems offer is like telling people you will give them Christmas every day in contrast to war...how hard is that. Makes me all warm and fuzzy jhust thinking about it...yuck.

The American people seem to lack grit (hail to the Duke)...that's what happens when you expect very little from people, treating them like infants and orphans with fried brains.

I wonder if there is a group of us could agree on a vision that would really inspire us.

We've done it before. Hmmmm...I'm not promising anything...but this sounds like it might be a great project for the weekend. Thanks for the idea...be sure to chime in if you have some of your own.

Posted by: Tina at March 6, 2008 10:41 PM

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