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May 24, 2009
Who Created Evil
The Sunday Sermon by OneVike
The debate about who created evil is an important one since atheists and skeptics use the existence of evil in their arguments against theism. It is incumbent upon all Christians to understand what the Scriptures say about the God they worship and the existence of evil in the world. If God created everything, and if evil is in the world, does it follow that God created evil? We are told as Christians to believe what the Bible says. Even the popular children's song, "Jesus Loves Me", has in its lyrics, "Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so". So, let us read what the Bible says. ,
In (Genesis 1:1) we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The New Testament says in (John 1:3), "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." So, we now know that God made everything through Christ, but are there any Scriptures that specifically say God is the author of evil? The closest we can get is (Isaiah 45:7), "I make peace and create calamity", and (Amos 3:6), "If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?" Ok, can we then point to any passages that might elude to God condoning evil? Probably the best examples would be the time Joseph confronted his brothers who sold him into slavery, "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" (Genesis 50:20), and (Exodus 9:16) when God sent Moses to Pharoah with this message, ".....I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." There are those who claim that these and similar Scriptures prove that God is the author of evil.
Now, if you're coming from the persuasion that God has foreordained the entire course of events in this world as Calvinism teaches, then reason and logic would suggest that God must be the author of sin. However, Calvinist who teach that God is the author of evil would be smart to pay attention to the following quote from (John Calvin) himself: "It is helpful, I think, to understand that sin is not itself a thing created. Sin is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of sin as something that was created. Sin is simply a want of moral perfection in a fallen creature. Fallen creatures themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the sins of fallen creatures." Calvin goes on to state unequivocally that, "God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things--including all the fruits of all the evil of all time--work together for a greater good." The biggest defenders of the idea that God created evil are followers of John Calvin's teachings. Seems to me that there is a bit of a schism in the ranks of the Calvinist movement.
Two verses used to defend the belief that God created evil are (Isaiah 45:7) and (Amos 3:6). In both instances the word evil, not calamity is used in 12 of the 21 Bible translations I have. It is important to note that all but one of the translations using the word evil were published before 1948. This is important because of the discovery of the (Dead Sea Scrolls) in the caves of Qumran in 1948. Fine tooth investigation of these Scrolls has revealed that the proper translation for these verses would actually be disaster or calamity, not evil. Now some may argue that a calamity is an evil, because it causes pain and misery and so they will still argue that God is the creator of evil.
When speaking of evil in regards to the nature of sin, it should be observed that there are three kinds of evil: physical, metaphysical, and moral. Physical evil is anything causing harm to man weather it be by order of nature directly, or through the various social conditions under which mankind naturally exists. I would say that accidents, sicknesses, and even most deaths would directly be caused by nature, while poverty, oppression and some diseases are the results of imperfect social organizations. Then we would have mental suffering, anxiety, disappointments, and remorse as a result of a both natural disposition and social circumstances. Metaphysical evil would be anything that limits an object in nature from attaining their ideal potential of existence. Some examples would be a lion killing a gazelle for food, harm or death to the gazelle would a metaphysical evil. Another metaphysical evil would be a tornado knocking down a tree thus limiting the tree's ability to keep growing. Depending upon ones perspective, metaphysical evil can be a beneficial evil, the tree dies and becomes fertilizer for new growth, while the killing of the gazelle insures the survival of the lion. Finally we have moral evil, which is anything that would deviate from what society has deemed as normal behavior, usually by someone who knows what society has considered normal. Historically, these standards have been set by various religious communities and followed by the societies they influence. It should be pointed out that bad behavior due to ignorance would not be considered a moral evil, because a person must have an understanding of what is considered moral to be in violation of such morals. One could say that ignorance is an excuse for bad moral behavior. In conclusion, I would suggest that evil is essentially a negative, not so much in the acquisition of anything, but the loss or deprivation of something necessary for perfection. While there are certain evils that benefit us like the killing of a gazelle by a lion, or the pain of injury to alert us of bodily harm, most evil is bad. So we can say that in a world originally created by a perfect God, evil or sin is anything that falls short of the perfection of what God originally planned before the fall of man.
The term sin, in the ancient Greek language, means to miss the mark. We all sin when we miss the mark set by God. God's mark is perfection every time. Man can never achieve the ability to hit the bull's eye every time so anything short of that perfect mark is sin. We can conclude that evil is the absence of perfection. In the same way that darkness is the absence of light, cold is the absence of warmth, and hate is the absence off love, evil is the absence of a perfect God. When I speak of evil as to whom or what is responsible for its creation, I mean the evil that is in the realm of morality.
So let's start with Satan and see if he is the creator or author of evil. Like men, angels were given free will and it was an angel named Lucifer who Isaiah wrote about in (Isaiah 14:12-16) when he said the morning star wanted to be worshiped like God and was cast down for his sin. Sometime following day one and two of God's creation of the heavens and earth, and prior to God creating man, Lucifer chose of his own free will to rebel against God. We can ascertain, then, that evil as we know it began at the spiritual level first as committed by Satan. That does not mean however that Satan created evil, because as we learn from the book of Job, outside of God's will Satan has no power. (Job 1:9-12) So we can conclude from this that Satan is not the author of sin, or evil, because he cannot create anything.
Next we must investigate Adam to see if he created evil. In the beginning man, nature, and God were all in a perfect tri-unity of harmony, communing with each other as man was given dominion over all that was in the world. Paul tells us that it was not until after Eve was tempted by Satan to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that sin or evil entered into the world. (Romans 5:12) Like Satan, man was given free will to either follow God or not, and man choose not to. We can surmise then that just as Satan was the first to commit sin at the spiritual level, man was the first to commit sin in the physical world. However like Satan, man cannot create anything without the will of God, and even then only with what God created for man to use in his inventions and discoveries. So our investigation leads us to the conclusion that, like Satan, man may have sinned but he is not the author of it. In Paul's letter to Romans, we learn man's offense allowed evil to come into the world, but Paul does not suggest he is the author creating it. (Romans 5:18)
We have examined the obvious choices and still do not have an answer. Maybe this little analogy of a father who gives his son a baseball and bat will help. Now I realize this is not a perfect analogy, but it does help to look at things from a father's perspective. As a gift of his love for his son, a father gives a baseball and a bat to his eight-year old boy. The boy goes outside to play with his new toy. He grabs the bat with his hand, rests it upon his shoulder and throws the ball in the air with his other hand. As the ball descends he swings the bat at the ball. To his complete enjoyment, the boy hits the ball squarely and it goes sailing into the air. As the baseball flies across the yard, it enters the neighbors yard and smashes into their living room window. As would be expected the neighbor confronts the boy about his window, and tells the boy he needs to fix that which he broke. The boy's father gets involved, apologizes to the neighbor and promises to fix his window. The father must do this because the boy has no means of rectifying the mistake he made. While the father himself did not break the neighbor's window, he does accept the responsibility for giving his son the ball and bat that allowed for the possibility that something bad could happen. In return the boy will have to suffer the consequences of his actions by mowing lawns to pay for the window or even loosing the chance to play with his ball and bat. The boy himself will not pay for or fix the broken window, his father does, and so it is with our father in heaven.
We have all been given the gift of free will and with it is comes the potential for committing sin, and we will. God has already accepted the responsibility and paid for our sins even though He himself did not commit the sin that enabled the whole of mankind to fall. (Revelations 13:8) We cannot do anything on our own that would satisfy God for our sins, just as the little eight year old has no way to satisfy the neighbor for breaking his window. Our father in heaven did what a loving father would do, He paid for the window we broke. He became man and fulfilled the requirements needed to become the perfect sacrifice to pay for our sins. (Philippians 2:7-8)
I have concluded that evil is not a thing created, rather, evil is a the result or byproduct of disobeying God's law, and the Scriptures tell us, "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4) God desires for us to choose Him willingly, He is not some kind of a cosmic rapist that would force His love upon us. However, if we choose not to love God, than an emptiness is created in our hearts, and sin or evil will fill that gap. Evil is a natural probability when free will is allowed to exist in ones nature, and like Lucifer, we were given free will to make that decision possible. Thus, evil is the absence of God's love and only the receiver can deny that love. John tells us that God is love, and that we did not love Him but that He loved us first. (1 John 4;19) That being said, we also then must conclude that, a perfect and responsible God must take responsibility for the actions of His creations. So even though God did not create sin, He did pay the price for it like a truly loving Father would, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
I pray that those who have ears to hear will hear His voice and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ...Amen
Posted by Post Scripts at May 24, 2009 9:24 AM
Comments
Good points OV, I really have never considered the aspect of how sin came about. Now I do lean towards the Calvinist idea of God's supremacy over all, but I have never help to the belief that god created sin, because that would be an evil attributed to an undefiled perfect being.
This is what Calvin's statement of faith is, and as you pointed he does not attribute evil to God.
The Westminster Confession of Faith
1646
CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
Get ready to be flamed OV if you post this on FR, you know it is loaded with Calvinists. LOL
Posted by: Fred Jake | May 24, 2009 9:50 AM
If a child is walking to school and a pervert grabs the child and does horrible things to it before he kills him or her; or if 80 year old woman is raped in her home by an intruder, Where is God in all this?
The ancient philosopher Epicurus posed such a question as this when he asked;
"Is He (God) willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is He able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is He both willing and able? Whence then is evil?"
The traditional Christian response has been and always will be the "Free Will Defense". That is, God did not want to create robots and therefore He gave humans freedom which inevitably includes the freedom to do evil. You can't give freedom with one hand and take it back with the other
In America we have been blessed with a Representative Democracy for a government. With this "Free Will" of voting for whomever we choose to represent us, we must accept the good leaders and the bad leaders until such time that we can "Free Willingly" replace them. For anyone to suggest that "Free Will" should not have a the consequence of the possibility of evil or bad results, is delusional and living in a fantasy world.
I do prefer to accept the fact that evil is the absence of good, so I agree with the author that God could not have created evil.
Posted by: Billy | May 24, 2009 10:24 AM
Is God the Author of Evil?
A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"
A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!" "God created everything?" The professor asked. "Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied. The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."
The student became quiet and did not respond to the professor's hypothetical definition.. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?" "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"
The other students snickered at the young man's question.The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does." The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil. To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
The young man's name is supposedly -Albert Einstein
Is this a true story, who knows? It was emailed to me a few years ago.....
Posted by: Anonymous | May 24, 2009 10:43 AM
Fallen creatures themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the sins of fallen creatures
This is true but God did design imperfect creatures who will sin. In the Garden of Eden God punished mankind for the disobedience of two people. Not fair by earthly standards but it desn't matter. God is still God and we are sinful creatures. God is sovereign and all things including sin are used for His glory. God may have not "created" sin itself but he designed imperfect creatures and allows sin and evil to exist in this fallen world.
Posted by: pt | May 24, 2009 10:45 AM
I agree with this completely. God cannot be the “author of sin,” because evil is a negative. Evil is the reverse of God, who is good. Like a black hole, it sucks people into it.
Humanity was drawn to evil by the heady promise of rejecting and being “free” of God’s will (and hence, the positive side of life). Any kind of evil leads to misery and death, even in one’s mortal life.
Our Lord came not only to teach us, but to free us from our past. He offered himself as a sin-offering (misunderstood by the Chosen People, the Jews, who had themselves rejected God) and set us free.
It’s up to us, the Body of Christ - you and me - now. Not only our individual and eternal future, but that of the whole human race. We must remain faithful.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 24, 2009 12:51 PM
If there is good, then of course there is evil...think of it as if the yin and the yang in the aspects of life in general...keep in mind that there is a positive and negative to all and evil is simply the worst scenario of good.
I see "Evil" as a level of deficiency concerning what we would perceive to be "good/pure"
I personally do not see things in terms of black and white... if it were so concrete how could there possibly be so many elements? Why does life seem so dynamic? Life is always changing...Why do things change? Due to influence... and how can these influences be what is deemed "good" or "bad"?
As for the individual who posted the story about Einstein, I guess it could be him, but if it was then I believe Einsteins intent was to prove that Evil is simply a name to slap on what is a "negative" influence. "Evil" manifests as a lack of love or positive influence.
I had a conversation with my mother a while back and was trying to explain to her why evil is simply an idea that the idea is due to a lack of concern for the subject. This goes to reinforce my views. I find it difficult to meaningfully communicate with some idealists, and frankly most Christians are just plain idealists who have conjured up an idea that utopia will exist if you live within the realms of the good sphere of life.
I do not mean that as an insult because I believe we all have good in us and eventually we will all be replaced by others living on mother earth who will walk upon our graves asking the same questions we are.
Posted by: Star | May 24, 2009 1:27 PM
Anyone who thinks God did not know if evil would be expressed (claiming that men had free will to choose not to sin), doesn’t recognize that the solution for the problem of evil was determined long before creation, “...the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.” A worthless concept if men would have “chosen” to be holy, to be sure.
So, the analogies above as to what may or may not have been a story of Einstein and him likening evil to cold lose their potency when it comes to issues about the origin of everything. We are compelled to come to grips with the statements that God made everything, yet does not hold Himself guilty of evil’s existence or expression. And while this doesn’t set well with our logic, neither do the statements Paul makes about our own guilt for sin thrust upon us by virtue of our very natures (”How then can He still find fault, for who resists His will?” Rom. 9:18).
Yet, we are not to answer back to Him, for He has ultimate, sovereign rule over all. And He gets to make all the rules. And, His transcendence leaves Him outside of any contemplation of guilt. That is what it means to be God. He set Hitler in place, as well as Pharaoh, Nebechudnezzar, Pilate and the evils of disease, famine, weather. But, He is holy. Is that okay with us puny mortals?
Those captured by His Rescuer say, Yes and Amen. He is guiltless, holy and the only righteous One. The lost seeker will realize that even if it seems wrong, that God is a sovereign ruler with the authority no matter whatever he desires to make. Unfortunately, those living in godless rebellion will look upwards, shake their fists at God and declare that He is WRONG, but in the end every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that "He is Lord."
Good article, and even though I disagree with you on who created evil, we need more discussion about the Lord's Word.
Posted by: Dutchboy88 | May 24, 2009 1:57 PM
Excellent points and a great Sunday Sermmon once again!
Posted by: Post Scripts
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May 24, 2009 2:13 PM
I always thought the Democrats created evil. Isn't that why they were able to find a way to legalize abortion, and now that they are trying to legalize gay marriage I am convinced they are the ones who created evil.
Posted by: Troy | May 24, 2009 2:47 PM
Is God all-powerful?
Yes.
Can He do anything?
Yes.
Can he create a rock so heavy that even He can't lift it?
Uhmm...
Posted by: Neinenstein | May 24, 2009 3:30 PM
How could anyone argue with such a well defined article that pretty much destroyed any idea that evil is created by God. The absence of good is evil. When I turn off the light darkness is present, did I create darkness or is it just the absence of all light? Sounds fairly simple to me.
This is what I almost posted on the other story by Bruce, until I realized my mistake. I am hoping that who ever is running this blog catches my mistake and posts my earlier comment on Bruce's story where it belongs as an answer to K.
Posted by: Tony | May 24, 2009 4:23 PM
Dutchboy88
Wow, I have always been fascinated with the way the followers of the reformed theology can weave such a beautifully sculptured answer into a paragraph or two and make it sound as if all the answers have been logically laid out for anyone to understand. I must say that while I agree with probably 95% of what you say, it is sad that most Christians are not educated in theology enough to see the bit of poison in the 5% of what you offer.
We are compelled to come to grips with the statements that God made everything, yet does not hold Himself guilty of evil’s existence or expression. And while this doesn’t set well with our logic, neither do the statements Paul makes about our own guilt for sin thrust upon us by virtue of our very natures (”How then can He still find fault, for who resists His will?” Rom. 9:18).
You boldly state that we must come to grips with the statements that God made everything. I would most asuradly love to agree with you on that statement, but then I would have to agree that one of God's creations is evil. For many it may seem a bit odd to see two highly theologically knowledgable individuals debate over such a minor detail as who created evil, or sin if you may. However it boils down to the idea that either God is perfect and would never put a stumbling block in front of us or he is imperfect and would allow for those He created to be willingly duped by His own words. If you agree, and I know you do, that the Scriptures are the inerrant word of God, then we just have to look at what the Lords brother James has to say about God making man sin. “Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God" for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.” James 1:13
Now to say that God is the author of evil is to say the the Scriptures are wrong and that God is a lier. Because in 2 Timothy 3;16 Paul tells us that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” So how pray tell could an all loving, all truthfull God be the very author of our supposed destruction? You make Him out to be no more than a scam artist who would set up unsuspecting humans for failure just so He can come in and be the savior of the day. What kind of God would that be? I dare say, not a god that I would have any respect for, because I would have been trapped into loving Him.
God wants us to love Him willingly, he is not as you would claim to be, a scam artist who will trick us into heaven just so that He will have worshipers. God has laid out everything fopr us, nothing has been hid and nothing will be sprung upon us that we do not already have the ability to know about or to find out about. He gave us sixty six love letters that hide nothing and offers everything.
Now as for the evil men throughout history that God used, it was not his doing that made them evil, but He did use them for His greater purpose. When we read that He hardened the heart of Pharaoh, it wass not as we would think of. God did not make Pharaoh to be evil when Pharaoh wanted to be good. God knew that Pharaoh was not being genuine in his heart and that deep inside Pharaohs heart he wanted wanted to do that which he was afraid to do. So, god removed the fear and allowed him to be exactly what he wanted to be. Thus the Hebrew description for the act of God was hardening the heart of Pharaoh, in reality God just emboldened Pharaoh to do that which he will eventually do on his own anyway.
In conclusion I will add, that which is called “evil” from the hands of man is not evil at the hands of God. If mankind bombed Sodom and Gomorrah, and destroyed all who were living there and obliterated the city, it would be called evil. When God destroys and obliterates Sodom and Gomorrah it’s called judgment. God knows all, He knows the heart of every person, He is righteous and perfect, and He is incapable of carrying out evil, even if it appears to be evil in the eyes of man.
Posted by: OneVike | May 24, 2009 8:40 PM
I don’t think Calvin was all that great a theologian. The problem with too many theologians is that they make the simple complex. If one was required to understand Calvin before getting into Heaven, Heaven would be a very lonely place.
Posted by: Julie | May 24, 2009 11:06 PM
Genesis 2:8-9 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Evil? Is it not a law of physics that for every action there is an opposite reaction?
Evil is the opposite of God. God knew of it but we sought it out.
God simply warned against evil but we could not bear to not know what it was.
We want to be like God.
When Jesus came he further defined it for us.
And when he returns he will define it again and there will be judgment.
If evil did not exist we would not need Jesus Christ as Gods atonement for our evil.
Yes, evil is in physical form and cannot be eliminatred in this physical plain or flesh existance.
Evil exists because good exists we brought it out of the garden with us.
And only by the blood of the lamb of God can it be removed.
People need to know that God is not evil in fact he is Holy!
There is nothing further from the definition of evil than Holy!
Posted by: right way right | May 24, 2009 11:12 PM
OVAdam and Eve were created perfect, but their sin of rebellion in the garden cursed us all to become imperfect. God, who already knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him and Jesus who was with him, had decided before even one molecule sang to him that Jesus would have to come to die for our sins to fix the mess we made.
The Jewish nation was chosen to bring Gods final answer to the question of evil and sin in us for all time.
I agree with you that God gave us free will to choose to believe Him and love Him willingly. Love is only true when given willingly. He knew that not all of us would choose to love Him, but he sent Jesus anyway to give all of us a chance to repent and turn to him. That is love on His part.
I too was created imperfect, but faith in Jesus and his resurrection has bridged that gap so God sees us as perfect, though we still have trouble with temptation and sin. But in 1 John it says that if we confess our sins, that He (Jesus) is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We are still imperfect while here, we will be made perfect when we stand before our savior and Lord, Jesus.
The evil that was, and is done, is done to try to change Gods plans for Israel and us. But we both know that God who knows the end from the beginning is able to use what is meant for evil and bring good from it, as He did with the evil done to Joseph by his brothers.
Posted by: coincheck (My son is home, safe. My brother is in Afghanistan, My brother-in-law is in Iraq Pray for | May 24, 2009 11:22 PM
When speaking of sin we must remember that the world and all that is in it was created perfect, but the fall of man created ramifications and consequences that we are still struggling with today. They are not abilities or goals to be achieved, but they are the terms we use to convey the idea of absence of righteousness.
This is why when someone reads that God cannot lie and they try to claim that God could not be omnipotent because He lacks something, they are mistaken. The act of lying is really an act of not being able to tell the truth. When you ask why God allowed humans to have the capability for evil, you are not framing your question fairly. You might as well ask why did God create us with joints that could be broken. He did not want us to break His rules, but once we did (and every one of us has) He had to take steps to repair the state we are in.
That step is His Son, the perfect Lamb who took away our sin and shame, we just need to call upon His name and He is faithful to come. Just call Jesus and He will come.
Posted by: John | May 24, 2009 11:48 PM
Star
If there is good, then of course there is evil...think of it as if the yin and the yang in the aspects of life in general...keep in mind that there is a positive and negative to all and evil is simply the worst scenario of good.
Sorry dear, but evil is the absence of good. We live in a time when we put gray areas on everything and that we come in contact with so we can feel comfortable in our desires not to walk as God would want us to walk. We even decide that maybe we can not judge evil because then we would be declaring someone else values to be bad. Well, some people do have bad values and we need to judge.
If the world wants to consider evil as a possible level of goodness, then it is exactly as Jesus told us 2000 years ago, when He said, "the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil". John 3:19
When we turn our back on God we create darkness. If you decide to do evil you have turned away from God, and thus we have the absence of God in our lives. We need to be like Job said someday He will be. Looking at His redeemer eye to eye.
You may ask, How can God be absent if evil is just a level of goodness? Well, wherever God ain't is where our minds are wondering, and that would be where we should not be.
After Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they covered themselves up because they realized they were naked. God came and asked where are you? Genesis 3:9
It was not as if God did not see them. He wanted to them to know that they had taken their minds off of Him and put it onto the world. Thus by removing God from their minds, they created and empty spot that allowed evil to grow in their minds.
The absence of God creates the presence of evil. All sin starts in the mind long before it is actualized in the flesh, and that my dear is how evil is created by the absence of God.
Posted by: OneVike | May 25, 2009 1:09 AM
Fred, Billy, pt, Star, Dutchboy, Neinstein, Juli, troy, and all those who are anonymous in this discussion
When I consider the great minds of the Christian theological world, I am often struck by how many of them liked sports. Even the apostle Paul enjoyed sports.
During the reformation we had many good theological minds who poured over all the great ancient manuscripts that were flooding the west after the fall of Constantinople by the hands of the Godless Muslims. These great men like Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Zwingli, Knox, and others all did the Lords work for those of us who stand on their shoulders of greatness.
That being said, there were not any good sporting events that could help them relax and get their noses out of the books. These men spent way too much time in the office and never got away to allow for absorption of the knowledge they gleaned. Do you have any friends who are so smart they are actually stupid sometimes?
I think God wants us to close the book sometimes and check out His planet, and see what others are doing, before we think we are so smart we know God better than those who wrote the Scriptures did. That is what happened to Calvin and some of the other reformers I think, the guys needed to get in a few rounds of golf or watch a good boxing match sometimes.
Around the year 205 AD there was a theologian named Origen, who was so smart that he kept up to 15 scribes busy writing down all the things he was learning about the theology. Only one problem, he thought so much that he began to think that Satan was redeemable. Eventually after he died, 99% of what he had transcribed was lost because it was crap, but he was a very important link in our ongoing struggle to understand what God wants us to know.
Many, many theological scholars through the years have contributed much to our library of knowledge, but many of them have also added many writings that have been twisted by their followers that have become heretical, like Origen, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Augustine, Jerome, and many others who are all giants we respect, but they are only men who make mistakes like us.
For those who may think that many of the followers of John Calvin or Martin Luther, or any of a number of other great theologians became a bit lost in some of their thinking and who they were following, remember what Paul told the Corinthians;
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 1:10-13
We need to remember not to follow these men as if they were Christ, as some seem to do. Like us, they were only men who God used. Someday if the good Lord decides the world has more time than we have personally, there could be others who look to men and women like us and think we knew more and were better than we really are. We can all agree on one thing, we have Christ as our propitiator and that is definitely something to sleep well with tonight and every night until He comes back.
Thanks for the discussion today, It was everything I had hoped for when I wrote the article and may God bless you all.
Your brother in Christ OV
Posted by: OneVike | May 25, 2009 7:57 AM
OneVike,
You've brought up a good point. I have actually known people who were so smart that they had trouble functioning outside of a very small and specialized environment.
I've got a good friend and he helps me stay in perspective and he challenges me at least once a week to be on the lookout for somebody who I might come in contact with who is having trouble (and WHO isn't?!) and to show empathy and be a witness for The Lord. We can read, and study, and absorb information, and "think" that we know God's heart and His will... but if along the process we FORGET that God thinks a great deal about people (therefore, so should we!), and we lose that focus, then we become one of those people you describe...too smart for our own good and INEFFECTIVE.
Good point!
Posted by: hiredhand | May 25, 2009 10:49 AM
OV
“... heretical, like .....Augustine..”
For instance?
And to whom do you ascribe perfect interpretation?
Posted by: Larry | May 25, 2009 10:50 AM
----Vike----
***I am often struck by how many of them liked sports ... I think God wants us to close the book sometimes and check out His planet***
I was thinking of visiting Planet Fitness, but I just didn't feel up to space travel right now.
Posted by: Bob Ireland | May 25, 2009 10:53 AM
bob
Fancy meeting you in my neighborhood. My prayers are with you always my brother, I hope your illness was not as hard to overcome as it could have been.
I checked out your web site and I really enjoyed all the information, but the wall paper should be changed. My eyes were bugging me from all the background activity, so I cut and pasted it all to word so I could read it.
Speaking of space travel, I need to travel to the planet in my back yard and fix the sprinkler system. It seems as though I now have a water fountain where there was once a sprinkler head.
Thanks for stopping my old friend, and say hi to your Gov. Crist for me........yeah right! LOL
Posted by: OneVike | May 25, 2009 1:24 PM
The bible claims god said "On the day you eat of that tree, you will surely die" They dis, and they did not die. It also says that god cast them out so they could not eat from the "Tree of Life" and live forever.
Then it says that the voice of god "walks" in the garden and calls out: "Where are you?" What, this so called all knowing god does not know where they are? Did clothing all of a sudden make them difficult for him to see them?
It all makes for a confusing story and makes little sense for an omnipotent, omniscience god when read on its most basic plot level. I understand why Genesis and Eden are among the most discussed with so many varied interpretations and meanings.
Posted by: Ben S | May 25, 2009 3:47 PM
Ben
Yes, and he said 'on the day you eat of that tree, you will surely die' - which they didn't.
Adam and Eve did die, they died spiritually and began to die physically. Their sin separated them from God, and in due time they even died. Just because they didn't drop dead instantly doesn't mean they didn't die.
The voice of God "walks" in the garden and calls out:
First off, the proper translation of Genesis 3:8 would be, “They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day.” They actually heard the Lords voice as He went through through the garden, not His voice walking through the garden. Ok, small and minor difference but just the same, now you know.
"Where are you?" He doesn't know?
The incident mentioned in Genesis 3:9,
Then the LORD God called to Adamand said to him, "Where are you?"
God wanted them to know that they had taken their minds off of Him and put them onto the world. Just as if a teacher caught a student daydreaming in class. The teacher may say, "Where are you?" Obviously the teacher knows the student is physically there, but the instructor desires to know where the students is mentally, because he is not paying attention to the lesson.
Adam and Eve had removed their minds from God and focused instead upon the world and their desires. By doing so they created an empty spot that allowed evil to grow in their minds.
The absence of God creates the presence of evil. James wrote of sin;
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15
James is telling us that all sin starts in the mind long before it is actualized in the flesh. When our minds desire something other than what God's will for us is, we begin the process of sin in our lives. God gave us a free will to think and do as we wish, with that freedom we will inevitably take our minds off God. By doing so we create an absence where God once was, and in that absence sin is born and grows into the fruit we call evil.
As I have said before, evil is anything that falls short of the perfection of God, and when we take our minds off Him we are creating an absence in our minds. The absence of a holy and righteous God means evil will present.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 25, 2009 4:44 PM
Larry
“... heretical, like .....Augustine..”......For instance?/i>
First I never said Augustine was a heretic, or that his writings were. What I said was;
many of them have also added many writings that have been twisted by their followers that have become heretical
I would say that Augustine's writings have been so twisted by the Catholic church to justify the teaching of “Purgatory”. I have read the portions of Augustine's writings that supposedly elude to Purgatory and I do not see how anyone can conclude such an idea, but the Catholic church declares he found it in the book of Maccabees. The truth be told, If you look closely at the records Augustine agreed with the majority of the churches during his life that the book of Maccabees are not canonical material. So why would anyone use it to build doctrine upon when Augustine didn't.
Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ' sacrifice, and thus it is heretical, but again I do not say he wrote that, but that his writings were twisted to prove it.
And to whom do you ascribe perfect interpretation?
I am not sure why you asked me this. Nothing in what I wrote will explain your reasoning, but I will say that we attribute perfect interpretation to the Holy Spirit. It is through the Holy Spirit that we get our ability to properly understand what it is God is telling us.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 25, 2009 5:30 PM
I take it the answer to me from Anonymous was from OneVIke?
Well anyway, thanks very much for your reply.
Obviously the teacher knows the student is physically there
In this case the teacher is omnipotent and omniscience. I can see your interpretation of this passage, but look at another thread of the basic plot.
God places the trees and tells them not to eat of one of them. He places the serpent there as well knowing what it will do. He creates the means, method and motivation and knows they will succumb. Then eternally punishes them for it.
We also cannot conceive of or relate to in our experience a "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". There are many who see this as a metaphor. A great many read it as involving sex or lust. Some see it as meaning self-consciousness and the capacity to over-ride - or abuse - our instincts. Can you imagine a state of your consciousness where good and evil were not known, and then imagine suddenly knowing it? Self consciousness itself is worthy of a great deal of wonder and contemplation.
The absence of God creates the presence of evil.
The original topic, thank you. I agree with this view; it's how I see evil as well. The absence of light and requiring free will.
Sorry to go so far off topic and I very much appreciate your company and comments.
Posted by: Ben S | May 25, 2009 8:29 PM
You said — God may have not “created” sin itself but he designed imperfect creatures and allows sin and evil to exist in this fallen world.
pt
Ummm.., that’s not what the Bible says. It says (of the one created being where evil started) that he was created perfect.
In fact, God said of creation, after all was done, that it was all perfect. That was God’s declaration. There was no evil there, and all was declared (by God’s own word, and He should know) as “perfect”.
So, no..., God did not create imperfect beings.
Posted by: S_T | May 26, 2009 10:41 AM
Ben
Yes that comment was from me, sorry. :>) I must have forgotten to put my name in. Well let's continue with the dialog shall we?
You said-----
God places the and tells them not to eat of one of them. He places the serpent there as well knowing what it will do. He creates the means, method and motivation and knows they will succumb. Then eternally punishes them for it
OK, lets take it one step farther shall we? God gives Jesus the power to make wine from water, He could obviously turn a stone in to bread, and the sends Him to the wilderness to fast for 40 days. Then as if that were not enough God allows Satan to tempt Christ. Christ does not fail, even though His circumstances are much more tempting then a fruit from a tree. However, in this case Christ ultimately becomes the one way to return into fellowship with God and have eternal life. Adam and Eve failed and Christ did not. Both Adam and Jesus were made perfect without sin, one passed the test one did not.
Paul tells us this in his letter to the Romans......
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- Romans 5:12
you say-----
We also cannot conceive of or relate to in our experience a "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". There are many who see this as a metaphor. A great many read it as involving sex or lust. Some see it as meaning self-consciousness and the capacity to over-ride - or abuse - our instincts.
I would say that it matters not what the object of their fall was from, because ultimately the moment they decided to chose to do it they sinned. It could have been a command from God that said, "Thou shalt not cross that creek." Had they then decided to disobey and cross the creek, then the same punishment would have been dealt to them.
As an aside, for no reason but I want to share this, Adam's sin was not eating the apple, well not his first sin anyway. Adam's sin was choosing Eve over God. Adam knew very well that Eve would die, (2 Corinthians 11:3) but he ultimately chose to die with her instead of being loyal to God. Paul mentions that Eve was deceived, but we know Adam willingly disobeyed
You say-----
Can you imagine a state of your consciousness where good and evil were not known, and then imagine suddenly knowing it? Self consciousness itself is worthy of a great deal of wonder and contemplation.
Another place in Paul's letter to the Romans he said.......
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." Romans 7:7
We do know that God reads the hearts of man, so lets say a native American in the year 1410 was living a life in the southwest that would be considered evil by our standards. However God knows what would happen if he were presented the Gospel, and it is upon those actions that would be that God will judge his life on.
Sorry to go so far off topic
I think that is why I enjoy posting my articles and then debating them. It is the way the Holy Spirit leads us down the highway into discussing the things God wants us to discuss.
and I very much appreciate your company and comments.
Dittos, & God bless you my brother.
Posted by: OneVike | May 26, 2009 12:43 PM
OneVike
I looked up Romans 5 and I think this is what you meant:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned- Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.Romans 5:12 & 5:18-19
I do get your point however when you say; Both Adam and Jesus were made perfect without sin, one passed the test one did not.
Perhaps then it was His mother that made the difference. :) ( just joking)
Part of your post reminds me of the old story of the priest and the Alaskan Inuit Indians:
As the priest is leaving and they are saying their goodbyes, the chief thanks the priest for teaching them about grace and salvation and asks: "Padre, if you had not told us about our sins, could we have gone to hell for them?"
"No," the priest answers, "Not if you did not know."
"Then," says the chief, "why did you tell us?"
Paul also writes:
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God Romans 2:5
Adam and Eve hid after they disobeyed. And I believe your example of the native American would still know good and evil in its absolute terms. There would be anachronisms and cultural and religious differences - conditions, but the raw conscience and the the capacity to grow in love would be there to be chosen, developed or resisted.
it matters not what the object of their fall was from…
Perhaps not but what is written matters, and it is about knowledge of good and evil - a necessary step for the development of conscience.
Pride as you indicate, is the mother of sin, and envy and coveting its different sides. This is what the serpent appealed to in Adam and Eve and in Jesus Christ. It matters because this is our teachable moment. :)
Thanks for your reply and may god bless you also.
Posted by: Ben S | May 26, 2009 4:04 PM
Vike
“...book of Maccabees are not canonical material”
According to whom?
Who, besides Satan, would contradict “It is good to pray for the dead”?
Of course he prefers that we give up hope and faith! Or at least that is what you suggest.
“...but I will say that we attribute perfect interpretation to the Holy Spirit. It is through the Holy Spirit that we get our ability to properly understand what it is God is telling us.”
It IS through the Holy Spirit, but it is NOT to each of us individually! This theory ascribes to each of us individually that which you would deny Christ specifically gave to Peter and the succession of Popes.
Millions of interpretations, each DIFFERENT, are alleged to be correct, rather than a single Truth passed down through the ages?
Posted by: Larry | May 27, 2009 9:00 AM
Larry
You are obviously Catholic, and that being said I really do not wish to get into a discussion with someone I must deprogram before you will even attempt to see my point. That is not to say I cannot prove you are wrong, but it will be a waist of my time to present all the information needed to open your eyes.
I also do not want you to think that I believe the Catholic church is a cult or that the Pope is the anti-Christ. I may think the Catholic church has problems but they do not deny the essentials of salvation or of Christ. That being said, I bid you a good day.
Posted by: OneVike | May 27, 2009 10:19 AM
Vike
1. I don't need deprogramming, as I am clear and comfortable with the source of my faith and it's Biblical substantiation.
2. My eyes ARE “open” and “proving me wrong” is NOT achievable, as your point of view is a matter of interpretation.
Check out the Nicene Creed and reconcile your position with that.
Posted by: Larry | May 27, 2009 2:16 PM
"Larry, You are obviously Catholic ...." ???
Always good for a laugh is OneVike.
And will somebody explain to me what the phrase "yet so as thereby" in the Westminster Confession is supposed to mean? That's a lot of verbiage to be just taking up space. Yank them out, and well, Mr. Calvin contradicts himself, doesn't he? It's all a lot of codswallop.
None of these Calvinists actually READ any of this stuff. It is interpreted for them, and badly too.
Posted by: Libby | May 27, 2009 2:22 PM
Libby
Are you trying to get on my good side?
Someone said one time that 98% of all Calvinists are teachers teaching themselves, yet when a person gives their life to Christ they go to churches that do not teach Calvinism, because even a new born Christian understands what Jesus said in John 3:16;
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Where in that verse does it say as John Calvin taught,
"So that only those chosen through predestination, but everyone else is damned to hell regardless if you believe in Him"?
No. I think I will take Christ at His word, "Anyone who calls upon the name of Christ, and turns from sin will have eternal life."
Posted by: Anonymous | May 27, 2009 4:00 PM
"Someone said one time that 98% of all Calvinists are teachers teaching themselves, ..."
Unhappily, we can say this about you too, you logical male, you. Fundamentalist Christians, of whatever stripe, are ... highly problematic.
The Bible is an extraordinary document ... but not to be taken literally ... by whichever "literal" interpretation whichever passel of control freaks does the interpreting.
It's not YOUR book. Certainly not your only book.
If you can get that one, little thing into your beknighted skull, well, then, we won't have to worry about North Korea, Iran, India, Nepal, China, or even Venezuela, anymore.
Posted by: Libby | May 27, 2009 7:30 PM
libby
The Bible is an extraordinary document ... but not to be taken literally ... by whichever "literal" interpretation whichever passel of control freaks does the interpreting.
Sorry Libby, but you need to find another place to play. I will only give you this and after that you can go play someplace where you might have a chance to actually sound fairly knowledgeable in that which you speak about.
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2Timothy 3:16-17
I for one will not be so bold as to say God is wrong when it comes to His word. You are free to do so, but mark my words,
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.Galatians 6:7
Those who do mock God will soon know the truth. Individuals like you Libby brings to mind the Psalm that speaks of those who think they can mock God and get away with it.
They mock and wickedly speak oppression; They speak loftily. They set their mouth against the heavens, And their tongue parades throughout the earth.Psalm 73:8-9
What the psalmist is saying is people like you are literally mocking God in your arrogance. The Hebrew word is - מוק mûq - from which our word mock is derived, and the idea the writer is insinuating, is that people like you support evil, which is plain to see in the way you continue to support crooks like like Obama, Kennedy, Pelosi, Hillary, etc. etc. etc. Like you, they deride religion, or as David wrote, you all mock at everything that pertains to God, and at His warnings about what will; happen if you do the things you are doing.
Further more by speaking loftily as you do about God's Word you are in fact vindicating excessive acts of the government, as we see you doing with the current administration time and time again. The very arrogance you and your heroes display pushes justice to an extreme oppressive state, that shows neither equity, leniency, nor mercy. The people you support are like you, cruel and vindictive in their dealings of the people who make this country work.
All this comes from the way you callously ignore God's Word when you make a statement as ignorant as "The Bible should not to be taken literally".
I pray for people like you everyday as I pray for Obama, so far my prayers have been like hot coals poured upon his head though, because he continues to do evil things. You will pay for the evil things you support. Mark my words!
Posted by: OneVike | May 28, 2009 10:49 AM
Libbey
Unhappily, we can say this about you too, you logical male, you. Fundamentalist Christians,
I forgot to point out something.
I love it when liberals use the word "Fundamentalist" when describe the beliefs of individuals like me. Then you say because I am a fundamentalist I obviously cannot be taken serious.
Do you even understand the definition of what the word fundamentalist is? I'll help you;
Fundamentalist is a derivative of the word fundamental, what does Websters say about the word fundamental?
Main Entry: fundamental
Function: noun
Date: 1637
1: something fundamental ; especially : one of the minimum constituents without which a thing or a system would not be what it is
OK, now let us look at the suffix "ist
Main Entry:ist
Function: noun suffix
Etymology: French -iste, from Latin -ista, -istes, from Greek -istēs, from verbs in -izein -ize
1 a: one that performs a (specified) action : one that makes or produces a (specified) thing
b: one that plays a (specified) musical instrument c: one that operates a (specified) mechanical instrument or contrivance
2: one that specializes in a (specified) art or science or skill
3: one that adheres to or advocates a (specified) doctrine or system or code of behavior or that of a (specified) individual
So we take the noun suffix ist and add it to the noun fundamental and we have the word fundamentalist.
So we have a definition of the word fundamentalist which is:
A person who adheres to, or advocates a strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles. In this case the basic principles are those that are taught in the Bible.
Now you may not like that the Bible says DO NOT about certain behaviors or practices that you desire to do, but TUFF! If you do not like what the Bible says, then get your own set of books that supports your morals of abortion, homosexuality, theft, etc. etc. etc. However do not try to tell God that His words are wrong!
I am honored to be called a person who adheres to the fundamental truth's of God's word that has been given us to read and understand through His Holy Spirit. So yes, I am a FUNDAMENTALIST!
Just as the terrorists are fundamentalists when it comes to their religion. See, the terrorists are the ones following Muhammad teachings. Islam is a religion born straight out of hell, and those so-called fundamentalists are doing what the Quran says they should be doing, Killing all who do not accept the teachings of Islam as taught by Muhammad.
The liberals love to throw around the word fundamentalists to ridicule and insult as out of the norm anyone who disagrees with them. When it comes to liberals, their main problem is they have no core moral beliefs. Their beliefs change from generation to generation, whereas those who adhere to the fundamentals of moral behavior never change, what was immoral 2000 years ago, is still immoral today.
So thank you for complimenting my adherence to what Christ taught.
Posted by: OneVike | May 28, 2009 11:31 AM
"Those who do mock God will soon know the truth."
If I'm mocking anyone, it would be you, not God. Mocking that YOU who would seem to be, in your own head anyway, the sole and supreme interpreter of the word of god (this "word of god" also being designated as the "word of god" by yourself). Do you see what I'm getting at?
Who the hell are you?
Now if we're going to discuss this at all, we have to keep to the subject. I spoke of the Bible, and you spoke of the teachings of Christ, which comprise about a page and a half of the Bible. I deplored the social consequences wrought by people who seek to impose a literal interpretation of the Bible onto their society. You read that book? There's some kinky stuff in there. A lot of it.
For instance: Leviticus 19:20 " And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free." (And I didn't even have to look hard.)
Then you get a guy like David Koresh out to make this one the founding principles of his community ... bad, very bad. And this is the fundamentalism I deplore.
Did you know that Jesus had nothing to say at all about homosexuality, nothing at all. In fact, you get the impression that he was a live and let live sort of fella. But those Old Testament farts ... just beside themselves on the subject ... makes ya wonder.
Posted by: Libby | May 28, 2009 2:23 PM
Libby
It would be below me to even contemplate an answer to your contemptible rants. You lady are truly one lost soul. Why would I try to answer any of your charges when all you have to do is go back and read any of my articles and the comments I have made. You bring up the same lame claims every time and they have all been answered. Now you may not like the answer, but trust me lady they are there for you to read.
You are a fool and as such I refuse to lower myself to your standards of idiocy that even K has pointed out to you, and she agrees with you. It is just that when one wants to be a fool, sometimes it's best to move out of the way and allow that fool to show the world how foolish they truly are.
Posted by: OneVike | May 28, 2009 9:01 PM