One Vike
The news is out that Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are having another child, their 19th. Yes you read correctly, 19 children and their oldest son's wife is expecting their first child. Let us all pray that he follows in his parents footsteps, by having as many children and being as prosperous as his parents. I have heard many people ask the question, "Are they keeping up the household without being on the government dole?" The answer to that question would be that they have never received a dime of taxpayer's money. That is not how they operate. In fact the Duggers run a their own ,business which teaches people how to budget and save by buying only what you can afford among other businesses they own and operate. They built their own home themselves, and had it paid for before it was finished. Right about now many liberals are screaming that the world is already overpopulated and this couple are just adding to the problem. Overpopulated? Is it really?
When it comes to having children, most Christians understand that the Lord opens and closes a woman's womb, and it has been that way from the beginning of time. However, mankind has tried to control that which God said is in His control. The first commandment given to man was, "Be fruitful and multiply Gen 1:22", and He re-iterated that command again after the Flood when he told Noah, "Be fruitful and multiply Gen 9:7". Try as I may, I have yet to find any passages where God rescinded that command. What He does tell us, is that if we put our faith in Him, He will supply our needs. Something the Duggars have proved time and time again.
However, the world we live in today is dominated by societies that worship the creation over the creator, and thus we hear the constant complaints from the "World is Overpopulated" crowd. Even in the church you will find that many Christians have very little faith in God's ability to supply their needs.
The average family in America has two point five children that consists of one boy and one girl and the statistics do not differ in the families that frequent church. Even in the families that diligently attend church more than once a week reflect the national average of 2.5 children per household. For over 40 years Americans have been bombarded with the idea that humans will overpopulate the planet if we do not limit the number of children being born every year. We have been told time and time again that if we do not control the number of humans who live on this planet that,
As of 2 September 2009, the Earth's population is estimated by the United States Census Bureau to be 6.781 billion. That is a lot of people, and the earth worshipers believe that number is way too high for the planet to properly sustain life. Sadly, very few people realize how preposterous the idea of mankind overpopulating the earth really is. If you take into consideration the latest figures that shows the average human family contains a Mother a Father and 2.5 children, than you will be surprised to learn that the world's population would fit comfortably inside the borders of the country of Australia.
By calculating the number of acres just in Australia alone, you may be shocked at how very unpopulated the earth really is. There are 1,899,461,760 acres of land in the continent of Australia. At 43,560 square feet per acre, that means there is a grand total of 82,740,554,265,600 square feet in Australia. Now, consider that the latest figures for the estimated size of an average family lot with a 2,200 square foot house in the year 2010 will be 11,870 square feet. Now if we calculate the size of the average human family which is 4.5 humans, you will see that every family could actually have a house with a lot size of 54,908 square feet, which is about 4½ times the size that your local city planning commission will allow you to have. That my friends, would leave the rest of the world for food production and other raw material collection.
Now these numbers get even better when you factor in the new technology we have that would allow for super high density populations, such as 1000+ unit apartment complexes. Then when you take into account the portion of the world's population that is under the age of 18. You could probably give a couple acres to each family of the entire world and comfortably fit them all in Australia. Also, Australia is the smallest continent on the planet, whereas Asia has 477,820,303,488,000 sq/ft and Africa has 32,554,273,973,760 sq/ft. Finally, if you took the amount of habitable land in the world 1,449,676,800,000,000 sq/ft and divided it by the world's population, you could theoretically give each person, regardless of age, 213,785 square feet of land, which would be about 4.9 acres per person.
No my friends, this planet is a very, very long way from being overpopulated. As a matter of fact, we could use more Christian families like the Duggers, who decided to follow God's first commandment by being fruitful and multiplying.
The Duggars are proof of many good things. Imagine how different the world would be if more people had the economic and work ethic they have.
It bseems they belong to a movement called the “Quiverfull, and it's a Christian movement that derives its name from Psalm 127:3-5, where many children are metaphorically referred to as a quiver full of arrows. While I do not subscribe to the quiverfull movement, and when I first watched a special about this family, I was expecting to be appalled by their beliefs and lifestyle. But after watching the show, and becoming more familiar with the family, their lifestyle, their beliefs, I do not find it to be nearly as disturbing as I thought I would. In fact, I kind of feel myself longing for some of the close family relationships and deep love they appear to feel for one another.
They appear to be a loving, happy family, who are deeply rooted in morality (which most of this society is severely lacking), and they financially support themselves. Translation, they are not on welfare to support their children. Yes, their show undoubtedly helps financially now, but remember folks, they had this family long before the bucks started rolling in, and they didn’t rely on public assistance then either.
They have built-in baby sitters, and the children are all homeschooled so they do miss out on some of the friendships and extra-curricular activities associated with traditional schooling. But they appear to be pretty well-adjusted. And quite frankly, I’d prefer my child be more like the Dugger children than many of the kids I see coming out of the public school systems.
I may not personally agree with the Dugger’s way of life, but anyone who watches the show on the Learning Channel with an open mind might just see something positive there that they weren’t expecting. I would highly recommend their show for all you liberals who thinks the government can do thing better than a close loving family like the Duggers.
More power to them!
They are not on the government dole.
They don't NEED a TV Reality Show like Jon - Kate + Eight to make ends meet. Mr. Dugger owns commercial Real Estate and has his own business. I find the show inspiring in contrast to Jon - Kate + Eight. All the Goselins are doing is making a mockery of “family” and entertaining folks with the disintegration of their family. This is a terrible way to exploit their kids.
I don’t care if they have 50 kids.
They care and pay for their own children.
I wish my sons’ friends, all advanced degree’d in hard science, maths, biochem, and engineering would have lots of children instead of the none or one that they do.
My sons? Them, too.
Slow out of the gates.
I hope these people go for #20. Screw the whiners who cry when someone has a big family. That’s why Mexicans will own this country in 20 years.
A friend and I were talking about this last night. I told him that since they pay for everything, have no debt including the 7,000 sq. ft. house, that it was none of my business how many kids they have. At least they are better than that Jon and Kate disaster. Both of my parents came from large families, not that large, and I loved growing up with all my cousins. The ones I really feel sorry for are the last ones of a family. That must be so sad. God bless the Duggars.
My wife and I raised six children, the last is in his senior year of high school.
I can not tell how many times while we were out as a family we were asked if we were Catholic, Mormon, etc, etc.
Many times people would ask why we had so many kids if we could not afford them, just assuming we were on some type of government dole. I never took a dime from any form of government.
After a while I developed a form of mockery to put these idiots in their place. When they would assume my wife and I were welfare king and queen by having six kids, I would tell them, "You are right, we have too many kids, so you get to pick the ones I will get rid of, please pick two or three to your liking. We are going to do a post abortion tonight and you are welcome to watch"
After the shock and I had their attention, I would explain it is none of your business how many kids I have as long as I don't take a dime out of your pocket, which I never have, then hand them a quarter and tell them to call someone who care what they think.
I only had one person call the police!
“After the shock and I had their attention, I would explain it is none of your business how many kids I have as long as I don’t take a dime out of your pocket, which I never have, then hand them a quarter and tell them to call someone who care what they think.”
Good answer.
We had eight children. Whenever the busybodies would tut-tut and say “Your wife is pregnant again?”, I would answer, “Well, we’d stop having them, but we don’t know what’s causing it!”
That shut them up real quick!
"Are they keeping up the household without being on the government dole?" The answer to that question would be that they have never received a dime of taxpayer's money.
And that is the way it should be. Raising six kids was a very difficult and tough endeavor. It was also the most rewarding time in my life. Nothing beats coming home and having 5 or 6 little ones excited and joyful to see their dad home and shower me with their love. Yes, we even home schooled them as well. That time truly were the best years of my life.
There were many times I worked two jobs to keep things on a even keel when an unexpected monetary event happened.
I find it very disturbing that parents today can't even seem to properly raise one child properly.
As long as the taxpayer doesn’t have to pay for them, they can have a hundred. This is not China,,,,,YET!
"That’s why Mexicans will own this country in 20 years."
Why is this kind of blatant racism tolerated on this site?
"However, mankind has tried to control that which God said is in His control."
That's what I keep telling doctors, firefighters, police officers, and everyone else who actually gets up and makes choices rather than waiting for the Holy Spirit to make them do it's bidding, but do they listen?
Every move we make is an act of control. This is why the Quiverfull movement's logic makes no sense to me.
That said, if you want to have 19 kids, go right ahead. I won't judge you, as long as you're not being a complete drain on the system (which not all people on welfare are.) Just don't try to force others to do the same by trying to outlaw birth control.
Also, the whole "be fruitful and multiply" order could easily be read as a message to a very different time, back when the earth wasn't quite as populated as it is now. And yes, it is overpopulated. Your calculations leave out many factors, such as the fact that people tend to leave their homes every once in a while.
K: "'That’s why Mexicans will own this country in 20 years.'....Why is this kind of blatant racism tolerated on this site?"
Please explain what about this statement makes it racist?
How do you know whether or not the person speaking is Mexican or married to a Mexican?
Tina
I love that they put their faith and trust in God. Unfortunately many Christians trusting God only when they are in church seems.
The true test of a believer is not in how convenient the belief is, but how strong the faith is while in the storm of adversity. My mother recovered from a deadly liver problem, which also helped her kidneys to recover, and she is back from death’s door and on half the medication. Prayer is powerful. Trusting God is just that, it isn’t penciling him in. Faith is certainty in the righteousness in that which is yet to come. By the way, if it were up to Obama, what medical help she did get would have been denied because she is 92 years old.
I feel badly for those who are not monks and choose to not have families. It is a great act of faithlessness and selfishness and a sign of stunted maturation. Even for those who do not believe in God, it is quite selfish not to get married and have children.
Many young people having one or only two children will regret it when they get old and need love, but they were selfish and young age adults so they will not have the benefit of many to love them. The Duggers will have more love than they will know what to do with when they are very old.
"That’s why Mexicans will own this country in 20 years."
Why is this kind of blatant racism tolerated on this site?
Why is stating the obvious a racist comment? The Mexicans who come to America, whether they be legal or illegal are not aborting their children like Americans are. They are also averaging more than 2.5 children per family. So if we extrapolate the numbers and advance them out by 20 years you will see that Josh has a point. In 20 years the number one ethnic group in America will be of Mexican descent. That is not racist, it is a fact. And he basically blames Americans for allowing it to happen by not propagating our own national race, which is American, not White, Black, Indian or any other skin color type, but American.
(As an aside K, it is all these little of the cuff remarks of racism and other such statements you make that leans me to really think you are a female.)
Also, the whole "be fruitful and multiply" order could easily be read as a message to a very different time, back when the earth wasn't quite as populated as it is now.
Gee K, I thought your understanding of the Bible was that it is not true? So why would you even consider what it meant for what generation if it was just made up by a bunch neanderthals who knew nothing beyond their immediate little world.
Now as for the idea that being fruitful and multiplying made sense at a time when the world was not as populated. How could these people know the world was not already overpopulated? Well to answer my own question, I would say because God knows all, so he knew how many people were alive and how big the planet is, and God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. There is no such thing as time to God. He never rescinded the command being fruitful, so He meant for us to be just as fruitful in our multiplying as He meant for Adam and Eve.
Your calculations leave out many factors, such as the fact that people tend to leave their homes every once in a while.
Run the numbers K, that is why I gave them. I used Australia s an example to show you how unpopulated the world really is. Fact is I could have used the state of Texas if I wanted to, but i used Australia because it ultimately would give each family the room to move around like you suggest they may so desire.
However, along with the technology we have for super 1000+ unit apartments for the high density populations, we also have the ability to grow more in less space, heck maybe someday we will be able to even grow steaks in petri dishes. Then again we do have the "SOYLENT GREEN" idea that seems to really excite Libby. (just kidding) Also, we know from the space stations we can, and do in many societies, recycle human waste. I know it sounds terrible, but the earth does, we have just been able to duplicate that process in a much quicker time period.
I read someone on another blog write that my idea of people living in Australia is absurd because most of Australia is a desert, well like I said that was just an example for a size relationship equation. However, pick a continent and we can fit the whole human race comfortably inside with the proper buildings infrastructure and transportation modes needed to make it work. All this is to show that we have a very very long way to go before the world is so populated we will be in trouble.
Besides, for neanderthals like me we believe God will return so the whole scenario of millions of people dieing of starvation due to overpopulation will never happen. Other than what happens right now due to the evil totalitarian type governments like Obama is enamored with.
I hear people saying "it's nobody's business how many kids I have."
Good point, whether it's 2 or 20. I have 2. My last pregnancy turned out to be riding atop a cystic tumor - "non-viable", meaning, I could sit home and wait for the miscarriage, or I could have a safe abortion. I chose the latter, thank God for Roe vs Wade.
I chose the latter, thank God for Roe vs Wade.
You say the child would have been miscarried anyway, but by whose decision would it have died?
Did you get a second or third diagnosis?
My point being that if their were no complications that would have harmed you, which you left completely out, than it would have been best to allow God you decide not some abortion clinic. I can tell you story after story of pregnancy's where the Dr advised that the child would die and the mother should abort, yet the mother said she would not. The women eventually had healthy babies.
The Duggers decisions to keep having children does not interfere with the health and welfare of the children, your decision of not allowing God to decide did by ending a life before it's time.
That is murder.
Again, you never offered info of how you would have been effected physically by the body miscarrying the child, so I can only go by what you offer.
They appear to be a loving, happy family, who are deeply rooted in morality (which most of this society is severely lacking), and they financially support themselves.
I am the 16th child in my family,eight girls eight boys,no twins and parents are together. I don’t know what I would do without my siblings. You have to be part of a family this large to understand. Every Sunday morning we get together to talk about our week. We have grown to 60 people now. LOL! We love each other and always there for each other.
Many people wish they had what we do. I agree it is kind of insane to have a nephew older than me but at the same time he was my playmate. People need to relax it is not some horrible thing to have people who love you no matter what.
By the way, not one of my siblings or cousins or extended family members are on the dole. Every one who can, does work and we all paid for our own children to be born. So it can be done if you put faith in God instead of this world.
Hey, "mind your own business"?
You wrote that your last pregnancy turned out to be riding atop a cystic tumor - "non-viable", meaning, I could sit home and wait for the miscarriage, or I could have a safe abortion. I chose the latter, thank God for Roe vs Wade.
My mother was told the same thing about two of the children she carried to term. It seems to me your Doctor was too eager for you to abort.
Why is this kind of blatant racism tolerated on this site?
Any time you wish to take it outside, I am ready and willing.
If you are a woman, then I'll have my 4'9" blackbelt Korean wife kick your ass!
Look at the friggen numbers you communist bast*#d. Go back and read my statement and then think real hard about where your head is, not mine. Their is not a racist bone in my body. Except maybe against liberal leftist who cry racism everytime they lose an argument or have no defense for their stupidity.
OneVike--"Why is stating the obvious a racist comment? The Mexicans who come to America, whether they be legal or illegal are not aborting their children like Americans are. They are also averaging more than 2.5 children per family. So if we extrapolate the numbers and advance them out by 20 years you will see that Josh has a point. In 20 years the number one ethnic group in America will be of Mexican descent. That is not racist, it is a fact."
The racist part is not that Josh stated that Mexicans will soon be the majority of the United States. It's that he very clearly sees this as a bad thing. To think that it's a bad thing that Mexicans will outnumber whites is obvious racism.
I can't believe I actually just had to explain that to three grown adults.
"And he basically blames Americans for allowing it to happen by not propagating our own national race, which is American, not White, Black, Indian or any other skin color type, but American."
As I have to say in almost every response to you, OneVike: you're not using that word correctly. American is not a "race." "Mexican" is. So saying that the Mexicans are gonna take over is no different from saying Blacks are going to take over.
Again, I can't believe I just had to explain that.
"(As an aside K, it is all these little of the cuff remarks of racism and other such statements you make that leans me to really think you are a female.)"
And it's little off-the-cuff remarks like that that make me know you are a mysoginistic d-bag.
"Gee K, I thought your understanding of the Bible was that it is not true? So why would you even consider what it meant for what generation if it was just made up by a bunch neanderthals who knew nothing beyond their immediate little world."
Because I was trying to argue from a logical framing that you would understand and maybe even accept. I am never going to convince you that the Bible is not the literal Word of God. I know that. But I am saying that even if the Bible is true, there could have been certain things that were written for that specific time, and this seems like it could have easily been one of them.
"Now as for the idea that being fruitful and multiplying made sense at a time when the world was not as populated. How could these people know the world was not already overpopulated? Well to answer my own question, I would say because God knows all, so he knew how many people were alive and how big the planet is, and God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow."
WHAT? You really don't see any way that the people who wrote (or transcribed, or maybe carried down the mountain from your perspective) the Bible could have possibly known, or heck, even believed, that the earth was not overpopulated, other than God telling them? Really? Are you freaking kidding me?
"He never rescinded the command being fruitful, so He meant for us to be just as fruitful in our multiplying as He meant for Adam and Eve."
Or maybe God just thought he didn't need to rescind it, that his people would be smart enough to figure out on their own when some of the old ways didn't work as well any more. (Again, I'm mostly arguing from your framework here. But I really do think that God, if he exists, gives us more credit for our brains than you do.)
"However, along with the technology we have for super 1000+ unit apartments for the high density populations, we also have the ability to grow more in less space, heck maybe someday we will be able to even grow steaks in petri dishes. Then again we do have the "SOYLENT GREEN" idea that seems to really excite Libby. (just kidding) Also, we know from the space stations we can, and do in many societies, recycle human waste. I know it sounds terrible, but the earth does, we have just been able to duplicate that process in a much quicker time period."
So how do you expect to move people into these perfect, fair amounts of land? Isn't that..teh dreaded socialism? Tina was just arguing that it's wrong for the government to even hint at regulating where people live. Do you agree with her on this?
If so, your calculations are irrelevant, because while they work in theory, you're never going to get people to live this way. People will still live in overpopulated areas, there will still be huge budget problems due to crowding and immigration, etc. etc. So I just don't see what your practical solutions are to these problems. You're ignoring reality in favor of theory.
"Besides, for neanderthals like me we believe God will return so the whole scenario of millions of people dieing of starvation due to overpopulation will never happen."
Does the Book of Revelation rule out such events as mass starvation and overpopulation? I don't recall that it does, but I could be wrong.
And, obviously, it's ignorant, absurd, and careless of you to just say, "Oh, well, God will take care of it, so we don't have to do anything about the problem" when there is a real crisis going on. You don't tell Christians to stop going to the doctor or let their houses burn down, so why do you keep insisting that on certain issues it's wrong for us to intervene with God's plan? It's a completely inconsistent position and it makes no sense.
Also, your response to "mind your own business" is just pure evil. How **cking dare you.
Josh--"Any time you wish to take it outside, I am ready and willing."
You criticize me for resorting to "crying racism" for "losing an argument" (what were we arguing about, pray tell? That was the first thing I had even said on this thread), but is that really worse than resorting to violent threats over the internet when you lose an argument?
It's extremely juvenile that you feel like you need to resolve all of your conflicts with violence. (Tina, this is your cue to blame easy divorce laws for Josh's behavior. Why are you missing it?)
I feel sorry for you, Josh, but this is a place for logic. If you don't got it, get gone.
"Their is not a racist bone in my body. Except maybe against liberal leftist who cry racism"
Like OneVike, you really need to look up the word "race." "Liberal lefties" is not a race. It's a repetition. And again, yes, your fear of Mexicans makes you a racist.
Note to K from the editor: I have edited your comment. You have been respectful of our policy against very bad language in the past. I advise you to continue that practice in future.
Mind your own business: "My last pregnancy turned out to be riding atop a cystic tumor - "non-viable", meaning, I could sit home and wait for the miscarriage, or I could have a safe abortion. I chose the latter, thank God for Roe vs Wade."
I'm pretty sure that prior to Roe your doctor would have given you that option. The decision would have been between you (and your spouse) and the doctor...a personal, private decision. it would have been nobody's business but your own...just as you seem to prefer.
K I think you read "racism" into what Josh said:
"I hope these people go for #20. Screw the whiners who cry when someone has a big family. That’s why Mexicans will own this country in 20 years."
Josh said they would own the country. His statement that began "screw the whiners" focused on "somebody" that has a large family. We know the Mexican population is growing statistically so since they also have large families, and other Americans (including Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, American Indian, African Americans) are not, his statement makes perfect "statistical" sense.
You also didn't respond to my question: How do you know Josh isn't Mexican himself or married to one. My family includes members of all but one of the races, it's quite common in America.
Also...some in groups like La Raza have expressed militant desires to "take over" the state of California and other states in the Southwest. The ones that run in gangs are serious and violent. Josh has good reason to be concerned (if he is). Americans should stand up for our country. The point was made that people with large families are looked down upon because of "overpopulation" concerns. If anything Josh was countering that attack by using the Mexican example to say big families are a good thing for America.
Racism is a serious charge. False charges of racism are equally repugnant and wrong. Progressives toss that charge around way too often and in doing so diminish actual cases of racism.
American is not a "race." "Mexican" is.
Wrong Mexican is a nationality, they are Hispanic Mexicans, kinda like I am a Scott/Irish Norwegian American. But I digress, because my point is that there is nothing wrong with nationalism as basis for being American. This is your basic problem, you were born here and you have no inkling of what it is to be American.
And it's little off-the-cuff remarks like that that make me know you are a misogynistic d-bag.
Thus my point that you are a woman, I have never ever heard a man, not even feminine liberal man, use that term when describing a Male.
WHAT? You really don't see any way... people who wrote... the Bible could have possibly known.....the earth was not overpopulated, other than God telling them? Really? Are you freaking kidding me?
Yea, last time I checked we have no written documentation of societies around the world outside of the Mesopotamian area at the time of the earliest writing of the bible. At least historical type documents that are as extent as the Hebrew texts are. Also, the majority of other written documents are in the minuscule when considering how many there really are. Most documents are still writings like hieroglyphics and other carvings.
All that just to say, how would they know what was going on in the Americas, Australia, Europe, Russia, China. They knew their area, unless God told them. Even those who believed in false gods only had their general geographical area to go by. As far as they were concerned there was no such thing as the Americas, Australia, China, etc. etc. etc. So there could have been 10 billion people living in Australia who were starving to death due to overpopulation, and they never would have known, or cared.
Does the Book of Revelation rule out such events as mass starvation and overpopulation? I don't recall that it does, but I could be wrong.
Yes, throughout the Bible there are warnings of the end times. Of the four horseman of the Apocalypse one is actually identified as the Death;
And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. She'ol followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him. Revelation 6:8
Some do take that passage to mean a worldwide famine that will kill 1/4 of the worlds population due to overpopulation. As for me I look at mankind and see it happening because of leftist policies that only retard mankind’s ability to feed the masses. Look at the Soviet Union. All that land and they could never grow enough wheat so we kept selling it to them. African nations starving because of dictators, all over the world people starve, North Korea is the best example we have right now, the whole country has been ecologically destroyed, not by capitalism and greed, but by totalitarian desires to control the people.
So you can see the prophecy of worldwide famine will not necessarily be because of overpopulation, but most likely because of leftist policies that those like Obama are in love with.
it's ignorant......to just say, "Oh, well, God will take care of it, so we don't have to do anything about the problem" when there is a real crisis going on. You don't tell Christians to stop going to the doctor or let their houses burn down, so why do you keep insisting that on certain issues it's wrong for us to intervene with God's plan? It's a completely inconsistent position and it makes no sense.
I don't say do nothing, I say do not do what the left thinks we should do when everything the left has ever done to fix a problem has caused other problems. And if we are talking about overpopulation then please consider the gentleman I know who lives in an area most people would cringe at even considering.
The man has built houses like his with septic systems, water systems all the while creating very low-cost greenhouse gardens (no grid electricity or gas required for heat) in arid conditions at nearly 10,000 feet elevation. All the while they enjoy the long winter that will probably include 8-foot-plus snow drifts and 100-mile-an-hour winds all while living in modest living quarters that most would cring at as being too big for society to manage. I have news for them, society does not have to manage, he and his family are managing quite well. They use wood for heating and cooking.
How did the Eskimos survive all those years, even before modern technology came around. Interestingly, since they have been introduced to modern technology they too have become lazy and unwilling to utilize the vastness God blessed them with.
Also as I said earlier, because of the modern technology, we have two of the largest human settlements in America right smack in the middle of the desert. Las Vegas Nevada and the Phoenix area of Arizona. Of course the only problem they have is the encroachment of liberal policies by the likes of Al Gore and his crowd who cause local politicians to bend over backwards before they even consider touching the resources they need for proper expansion.
Think about it, Southern California is in need of a lot of water, but instead of digging a big hole in the desert to the West of them and diverting all the rain that floods them in the winter to save for the summer months, they would rather worship the ground and the fish all the while allowing the water to drain out to the Ocean.
All it takes is the same spirit that originally built this country. Instead we have many, even on the right side of the political spectrum, that would rather believe their political enemies that we have only a small amount of habitable living space. So they buy into all the lefty ideas that only restrict their very freedom.
The only real obstacles come from humans who desire to control every second of every persons life.
Also, your response to "mind your own business" is just pure evil. How f*^#ng dare you.
What part of that comment to her was cruel? I offered my point and it was an honest thought out comment. It sure did piss you off though. Did you write it instead of whom said they did? I also asked for more clarity of her dilemma.
I look at abortion of any kind as murder, not just a medical procedure. I have been personally effected by the desires of others to end life before it has had a chance to even enjoy the air. After my mother had her 7th child, she was advised by the doctors to get a hysterectomy or she may die with another pregnancy. She did not have one.
A year and a half later she was raped and became pregnant. It was 1956 and abortions were illegal or, as my stepfather told me when I was 14, she would have had one. I was born and spent most of my first few years in the hospital, but eventually became strong enough to go home permanently.
My mother never experienced one problem during the pregnancy and she lived until she was 83.
You see, I take abortion very serious and it does qualify as a decision men are and should be involved with. So don't get so vulgar with me, when you do not know whence I come from.
I would ask you to apologize to me for using such vulgar language that is unbecoming, even from a woman like you.
I was reading an article about them in a magazine at the doctor yesterday and found out some very intereseting things
First take a look at these few bits of facts and try ti wrap your mind around…..I certainly can’t!
Michelle Dugger has now been pregnant 147 months of her life, with five more to go. That’s 12-plus years and counting.
The Duggers report that they have changed an estimated 90,000 diapers and do approximately 200 loads of laundry a month. They feed their entire family on less than $2,000 a month and say that they live debt-free.
Now that being said, I am all for having as many babies as you want, but isn't this all a bit dangerous for her to keep getting pregnant so soon after having a child. She say's she breast feeds, but then she said she got pregnant while baby #18 was only 8 months pregnant. Something isn't jiving, I thought you could not get pregnant if you are still breast feeding.
I’ve heard that Michelle Dugger weans her babies at 6 months so that she can get pregnant again sooner. Also, I think it would be difficult logistically to practice extended breastfeeding with such an extremely large family. Once the baby is on formula, caring for him/her can be delegated to one of the older daughters. While I’m all in favor of large families and of having the older siblings help out with the younger ones, it seems that the Duggers take this to an extreme.
You need to quit reading posts and articles from individuals who have no clue of what they are talking about. For one thing I do not think you understand the facts about breastfeeding. Breastfeeding mothers CAN/DO get pregnant. Fertility is not “naturally delayed” in all cases through breastfeeding. If the child is over 6 months old the chances become higher that you will get pregnant even though you are breastfeeding. There is never a 0% chance of getting pregnant though. There are a couple others factors to consider that I will not post here but that you can read on Le Leche’s website
Also, Michelle Duggers youngest child is 8 months old and she was still breastfeeding her. Michelle mentions in an article titled, "Arkansas family prepares for baby No. 19", that the baby had become very fussy while nursing and that was not normal. She says that should have tipped her off that she was pregnant yet again. It would be nice if more women were advocating breastfeeding, and because she is so popular and reaches so many mothers, she would be a great spokesperson.
As for your problem of them having the older children help with the younger children, get a grip. I’ve seen families with 2 kids, where one was a few years older than the younger, have the older be little more than a pseudo-parent in helping to raise the younger. It seems to me, at least in part, to be a parenting style issue. I’ve also seen parents make their kids do laundry, mow the lawn, clean the house, and cook – again, its a parenting style issue. If a child is old enough to be a baby sitter, what’s wrong with taking advantage of that? I know many families who have done that.
On the other hand, I’ve seen parents with large numbers of children do ALL the parenting and many, if not all, of the chores. Again, its a parenting style issue. Personally, I think the kids SHOULD grow in the responsibilities we give them as they mature physically, emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually. If we don’t teach them how to run a home and give them practice and experience, they will likely have to learn the hard way and mess things up once they’re adults.
I wish I had been given training in finances and home maintenance when I was a teen – it would have saved me a lot of difficulty in my early adult life. I had NO experience with children or babies, and it would have been nice to have had training in that area from my own mother and father. Of course being as I was the baby of the family, it would have been kinda hard for them to do that. :) But if families have that ability, why not provide that training for them?
As for taking things to an extreme, I guess making your son cut the grass on the weekend would be taking things to an extreme. Or having your daughter wash cloths and both of them washing dishes is just cruel. The problem in this country is we have way too many parents who bought into the whole Dr. Spock idea of raising children with no discipline and no direction, well where did that get us.
I went way too long, but after reading the comments all over the web about the cruelty of these parents and the way they are going to ruin the environment or other totally ignorant comments just got me going.
There are actually only five races and Hispanic ain't one of em'....
1) Mongoloid (Asian and American Indian)
2) Caucasoid (European)
3) Australoid (Australian and oceanic)
4) Negroid (east African black)
5) Capoid (south African black)
The remaining peoples are mixtures or "mongrels" of the different races above. This theory was originally proposed by Ashley Montague and has been disputed for years, but has still withstood the test of time to a large extent. The biggest problem with this theory is that all races share 99.99+% of the same genetic materials which means that further division of race is largely subjective, and that the original 5 races were also probably just subjective descriptions as well.
Ok, but my point being to K was that Mexican is not a race as she tried to say.
Your point was very well taken and I was supporting that point because Mexican isn't a race unless you classified it under one of the five in which case Mexicans are the same race as Europeans.
I've been hearing a lot of people saying we can't criticize women like Ms. Dugger for her reproductive choices. Just because I believe women should have the ability and right to make these sort of reproductive decisions doesn't mean that I believe they are moral or ethical decisions. Why is it not up to us to judge and criticize? Why can't we judge and criticize while looking at the outside structures and forces that have led them to the decisions they have come to?
From what I understand The Quiverfull movement saddles women with a life of submission and near-constant pregnancies. This is a self-proclaimed "patriarchal" movement that raises its girls to be subservient to men and that they are also very prejudiced against homosexuals. Haven't studies shown that younger male children in large families are more likely to be gay? What's going to happen if one (or more) of the younger Duggar boys come out and claims to have the hots for his many male cousins? Like I said, they are fundamentalist Christians, and last time I went to church those fundamentalists preach against the idea that I can love someone of my own gender. That church in the old theater by the mall is a prime example of homophobes if you ask me. What are all these church goers going to do when the 10% of boys or girls that studies prove will be gay? From what I have saw, these Quiverfulls don't appear to be very gay-friendly.
We're looking at people who have managed to market their ever-expanding family (and no doubt are able to maintain financial security at least partly due to this fact), and perhaps keep having children in part to stay in the public eye. When watching the show, it seems that for the female children especially, their lives are filled with caring for the younger children and housework--no doubt preparation for their futures are wives and breeders.
I should be able to criticize the Dugger's parenting all day, because as parents who have invited the public into their private lives, I don't think they should be exempt from it. Reading their family website is disturbing, these are people who believe that birth control is the same thing as abortion, and made their decision to never use it after blaming Michelle Dugger's miscarriage on the pill. They thought it was completely impossible to get pregnant while on birth control, what a bunch of morons.
Really, I had to stop watching their show because of all the blatant hypocrisy of acting as if their sh^* didn't stink. When I used to watch it, my friends and I would joke about how badly we wished their kids would all turn out to be raging homosexuals. In reality, it would probably be a sad, repressed life for someone whose parents would never accept them and would think that they needed some sort of Christian intervention to turn them to "God's Path" or whatever.
And all this creepy idolizing you people do over this family is really disgusting. Not to mention the carbon footprint a family this size is leaving. There really aught to be a law that says parents can have no more than 2 children.
Judge away...just doesn't mean you have good judgement.
Almost forgot to add, do you have any idea of how many Spanish speaking families would want to rip you to shreds fro trying to limit their familes to two children?
You're messin with their religion and their culture and they would take very strong offense to that. Uh, so much for your judgement on this one. lol
It bseems they belong to a movement called the “Quiverfull, and it's a Christian movement that derives its name from Psalm 127:3-5, where many children are metaphorically referred to as a quiver full of arrows.
I looked around for some information on this so called 'Quiverfull" group, and you would be astonished by the way life can be inside this cult.
I read about a woman who was inside of that movement, and watched her friends and family go through indoctrination into it. Often they were already in a marriage with a couple of kids and unhappy, and they made the decision between leaving for an uncertain life or giving up and submitting so that they didn’t feel the constant pressure of being the decision maker.
She went on to tell of the way she had to barely gotten into the movement before she realized her husband was not the sort of man who was capable of making good decisions for her and her children. She felt as if God had different plans for her beyond having lots of babies. She eventually go divorced and found out a few years later that many of the women she had gotten to know in the cult movement ended up divorced also. One thing she said that rarely gets mentioned about this the quiverfull movement, was the physical and psychological abuse by many of the men who rule with a iron fist of power overt their submissive wives.
She also said that it is not all bliss and roses in the sexual departments either. Because the woman are always pregnant many of the men are prone to having affairs, going on spending sprees. They can really get to the point of basically denying many of basic needs their families need. So many women end up divorced with four or more kids they have to take care of on their own.
Oh sure the Duggers are the perfect family they like to put out to the public as the front for their patriarchal society of cruel society where women are just tools for the men to have large family's they can control. I would not be surprised if we eventually hear of sexual abuse among the younger girls just as we have heard in the Mormon groups where the men had three or four wives.
You are oh, so wrong about so many things you claim to know. There is no evidence that supports your so called studies of 10% of people being homosexual or lesbian. That study was done by a professor who asked his students and then tried to pass it off as being a scientific study. First off, the professor is gay and many of his students took the course he was teaching simply because they wanted a gay teacher if they could. So his number will automatically be skewed by that fact. It is just the MSM and the left wanting to believe something to prove homosexuality as being normal, that they keep repeating the results even the leading proponents of the gay issues had to come out and admit the study was so flawed it was a joke.
This is similar to the study about being born gay, that a professor tried to pass his very flawed results that pointed to the existence of a gay gene. He too used his students and he also had a higher than normal percent of his students that were gay. So his whole study has been disproved by the scientific community as a joke like the other study.
The left keeps trying to prove something that does not exist. They want so badly to say that humans can be born gay, that they will grab onto any study regardless of the credibility of those who did it and run with it. By now those who keep trying these tactics should have lost all credibility to the point that no one should ever take them serious.
As for you, I can only remark that your anger at the Christian community is so visceral that you will grab any news you can just to smear those you do not like. I would ask K, why she did not get upset for PS allowing this hatemonger to post a comment, but then again, K only gets mad when someone on the right comes off as being mean or insensitive.
Tina:
"K I think you read "racism" into what Josh said:"
My, how could I possibly have read any racism in the statement "That's why Mexicans will own this country in 20 years?" I can't believe there's actually any controversy here.
"Josh said they would own the country. His statement that began "screw the whiners" focused on "somebody" that has a large family. We know the Mexican population is growing statistically so since they also have large families, and other Americans (including Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, American Indian, African Americans) are not, his statement makes perfect "statistical" sense."
I've already acknowledged that this makes statistical sense. What you have failed to acknowledge is that Josh clearly stated this as a bad thing. Do you believe it's a bad thing that the Mexican population will soon be larger than the white population? If so, you are a racist.
"You also didn't respond to my question: How do you know Josh isn't Mexican himself or married to one."
I didn't answer that question because it's completely irrelevant. Mexican people can be racist against other Mexicans. They can also easily be racist against the race of the person they're married too. Being a minority or being close to certain minorities is not a "Get out of racism free" card.
"Also...some in groups like La Raza have expressed militant desires to "take over" the state of California and other states in the Southwest. The ones that run in gangs are serious and violent. Josh has good reason to be concerned (if he is)."
Then he should express concern toward those groups and not Mexicans as a whole. Can you really not see what that leads to? What if he had said the Jews were gonna take over the country and not Mexicans? Would that have rung any alarm bells for you?
Also, La Raza is a very mainstream group. John McCain has spoken at their engagements, for God's sake.
"If anything Josh was countering that attack by using the Mexican example to say big families are a good thing for America."
That should say, "big WHITE families are a good thing for America.
"Racism is a serious charge. False charges of racism are equally repugnant and wrong. Progressives toss that charge around way too often and in doing so diminish actual cases of racism."
I do not throw that word around lightly. You'll remember that I didn't think the Gates incident was based on racism on the part of the cop. But statements like this are racist and they do real damage.
I think there are many people who believe having a large family is wrong – some of the comments on this blog entry show that. There are some who would believe that a woman who chooses to be quiverful must be crazy or somehow give up her rights as a human to be little more than a brood mare. There are those who think that being quiverful means not taking care of one’s self. There are those who think that being quiverful means you will be on government welfare.
Perhaps there ARE quiverful people like that. I have not met any. I HAVE met people on welfare with lots of kids – but it was not out of faithfulness to God that they had them. We had been told we could not conceive and should go on fertility treatments. We didn’t. Instead, we were content with what God had decided. My wife got right with God, and conceived. We had our first three kids one right after another. Our last one came along a little while later than the first three, but we did nothing different. It was God who decided when my wife would get pregnant.
My experience with people I know who are quiverful is exactly the opposite of what you Mary, claim. The families are of varying sizes – small to large. The husbands work and support the families. Some wives work, some do not. Most are complementarian in the familial roles. The children know they are loved and cherished and are well adjusted normal kids. I have never known a woman who was quiverful to be brow beaten or anything like that. I can’t say the same for women of large families who's having society pay for them on welfare living in low rent districts because that is all the government will give them money to afford.
As far as one on one time with the kids, I never got one on one time with my dad – and there were only 2 kids in our family. So for me the worry that kids aren't getting enough one on one time has little to do with the size of the family. It has more to do with parenting style. We only have four biological kids. We have a (now) adult foster daughter, and she has 2 kids. At one point, they came to live with us, so at one point, I was supporting 7 kids. They all demanded/needed time. But they also knew I’d take 5 minutes here or 20 minutes there and just be with them. Or I go to the store with one. If they needed to talk, they also know how to ask for it – and they do.
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who was quiverful treat their kids as by products. I HAVE seen people focus more on their marriage than the kids, to ensure their marriage was healthy. The kids benefited from that. Quiverful families have the same difficulties as those who are not. But regardless of all that, God decides when people live and die. God opens and closes wombs. Although we were not quiverful and we can no longer have children (health problems), we wanted more. In fact, we would be open to more, if that is what God wants, and may in fact adopt in the future. If God were to take my wife, it would be painful, devastating even. But that can happen regardless of whether she gets pregnant or takes a shower or drives or even coughs. My wife has had lots of health problems. And sometimes its a real concern. She is responsible to take as good care of her health as she can, but God is in charge of her life.
We are responsible for being faithful to what God has called us to. If you are not called to not using birth control, then by all do what God has called you to do. But be certain its not the culture of the world leading you. An important factor to remember for the person who claimed the Duggers were stupid or moronic for equating birth control pills with abortion, well I have news for you. Some birth control pills do abort a fetus. What they do is attack the fertilized egg, and so the life is ended after it began. So they are a bit more informed than you are.
I also know a family up in Paradise that has 8 children, and their children are clean well behaved and very well loved. You who would rather worship this world will one day meet the Creator of it. On that day you will be silent as He passes judgment on your life. I advise you to get on your knees and pray that the Father does not harden your heart as He did the Pharaoh's.
Now for who really hates Christians, young man why are you so angry at the church? You must have had a bad experience with some false Christians, because true Christianity would not turn you off, unless you are so evil the light cannot shine in you, but even then God loves you and calls you to repent. Take Him up on His offer before it is too late. Let Him into your heart and you will see that there is a lot you are wrong about.
"Wrong Mexican is a nationality, they are Hispanic Mexicans, kinda like I am a Scott/Irish Norwegian American."
Like Jack said, race is rather subjective and meaningless, but Mexican is widely recognized as a racial term by most people even if it does not fit the technicalities (which again, are arbitrary). "American" is not commonly viewed as a race, therefore your words made you sounds ridiculous.
"But I digress, because my point is that there is nothing wrong with nationalism as basis for being American. This is your basic problem, you were born here and you have no inkling of what it is to be American."
But what does saying "Mexicans are going to run this country" have to do with nationalism? Mexican-Americans are already a huge demographic in America. They are Americans too.
"Thus my point that you are a woman, I have never ever heard a man, not even feminine liberal man, use that term when describing a Male."
Wow, you don't get around much. Go to some feminist websites with male writers. Try Hugo Schwyzer, you could learn a thing or two from him. Regardless, "misogynist" is an accurate descriptor for you. Men and women alike can see that.
"Yea, last time I checked we have no written documentation of societies around the world outside of the Mesopotamian area at the time of the earliest writing of the bible. At least historical type documents that are as extent as the Hebrew texts are. Also, the majority of other written documents are in the minuscule when considering how many there really are. Most documents are still writings like hieroglyphics and other carvings.
All that just to say, how would they know what was going on in the Americas, Australia, Europe, Russia, China. They knew their area, unless God told them. Even those who believed in false gods only had their general geographical area to go by. As far as they were concerned there was no such thing as the Americas, Australia, China, etc. etc. etc. So there could have been 10 billion people living in Australia who were starving to death due to overpopulation, and they never would have known, or cared."
*sigh* Again, they don't have to know what's going on in the rest of the world. A lot of people thought a lot of things about the world in that time, some right, some wrong. Maybe they just considered their little slice of earth when wanting to populate it.
"Yes, throughout the Bible there are warnings of the end times. Of the four horseman of the Apocalypse one is actually identified as the Death;
And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. She'ol followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him. Revelation 6:8
Some do take that passage to mean a worldwide famine that will kill 1/4 of the worlds population due to overpopulation. As for me I look at mankind and see it happening because of leftist policies that only retard mankind’s ability to feed the masses. Look at the Soviet Union. All that land and they could never grow enough wheat so we kept selling it to them. African nations starving because of dictators, all over the world people starve, North Korea is the best example we have right now, the whole country has been ecologically destroyed, not by capitalism and greed, but by totalitarian desires to control the people.
So you can see the prophecy of worldwide famine will not necessarily be because of overpopulation, but most likely because of leftist policies that those like Obama are in love with."
But that's not what you said. You said that mass starvation and overpopulation simply wasn't going to happen at all, and based that claim on your belief in the Bible. But you have offered no Biblical evidence for that claim, and now you're changing the claim completely.
I'll try to respond more later.
Do you believe it's a bad thing that the Mexican population will soon be larger than the white population? If so, you are a racist. ** "You also didn't respond to my question: How do you know Josh isn't Mexican himself or married to one." ** I didn't answer that question because it's completely irrelevant. Mexican people can be racist against other Mexicans. They can also easily be racist against the race of the person they're married too. Being a minority or being close to certain minorities is not a "Get out of racism free" card.
My God! This clap trap (and the multitude of ad hominem accusations of "racism" from all of the left posters here) leads me to one conclusion: All of YOU are obsessed about race. It is YOU who see race in everything. It is YOU who see a racist at every turn in the conversation. It's the first thing YOU think of and the most common retort. The bigotry of your own position never seems to occur to you. I don't know whether Josh is a racist. I'd have to look into his heart to know for sure. His comment was simple and in no way overtly racist if at all. YOU put it there!
It is highly unlikely that a true "racist" would marry someone of the race he hates. Tossing that word around diminishes real cases of racism.
My own concerns about Mexicans "taking over" the country are about assimilation not color of skin. It's important that people coming to America learn about our form of government and our practices and traditions. (We don't allow fathers to murder their daughters just for dating, for instance, as has been seen in Canada and England with Muslim immigration) I'm not thrilled with the idea of seeing our country changed into something other than the republic we were given. I'm perfectly content to attend a fiesta or participate in an afternoon siesta...so it isn't about not including or celebrating cultural differences either.
The Mexican population IS the white population, so that negates your attempt to falsely play the race card.
A better question would be, "Do you believe it's a bad thing that the illegal Mexican population living in California is overwhelming the schools, the prisons and taking too much from welfare and health care?
And my answer would be, no of course not, its a wonderful thing we have going on here, because we want to be just like Mexico! And soon we will be. We will have their same standard of living, especially when it comes to crime, drugs, pollution, garbage dumping, pesticide spraying, sewage and food safety. We love this stuff and can't wait until we're just like Mexico and then everybody will be happy. You don't oppose this do you?
But that's not what you said. You said that mass starvation and overpopulation simply wasn't going to happen at all, and based that claim on your belief in the Bible. But you have offered no Biblical evidence for that claim, and now you're changing the claim completely.
Where did I ever say there would never be starvation? I even shared where the Bible says it will happen. What I said was starvation will not be because of overpopulation. I believe starvation will be caused by the policies of the leftist like YOU! Get your facts straight about where I stand and what I say. I also said there are those who think that the starvation mentioned in the Bible will be caused by overpopulation, I disagree with them. I do not believe there will ever be an overpopulated world.
You really need to take a class on reading comprehension, because you do not know what I am even talking about. You are so clouded by hate and anger you cannot properly understand what it is someone is trying to say.
We are going around in circles here, and to be quite honest you just don't get it. You never will get it as long as you can only see racist white men whom you consider to be homophobic.
Yes, I think you are a lesbian and that makes you a woman. Try as you may to act like a man you do not pull it off. We all know we can be whatever we want to be on the internet and you have decided to be a man, fine be one. However unless you have an operation it will never change the plumbing and I really could care less what you think about me knowing what you are.
You have still not apologized for using a very bad derogatory word in describing me. Tina had to go back and delete your word after I alerted her to it. K, you need to quit visiting the DU, you are beginning to pick up their bad habits of foul language. It really is a sign of laziness. What you need to do in the future when you have the urge to cuss, is think of five adjectives you could use in its place. When I gave my life to Christ it really worked, oh I still slip now and then, but I am much better.
Seriously, Tina? I'm the one that brought race into this? I'm the one who first mentioned it?
You are being deliberately, willfully ignorant here, and it's pissing me off. You're better than this.
As are you, Jack. Your statement "The Mexican population IS the white population, so that negates your attempt to falsely play the race card," is simply comical. It is a very simple truth that most people in America draw huge and numerous distinctions between "white" people and "Mexican" people, despite the technicalities that make this possibly inaccurate. That's simply a fact. Like OneVike, you are hiding behind a logical framework that may make sense in theory, but has no bearing on our actual day-to-day lives. Whether there are only five races or one human race doesn't really matter much to kids who are called called Beaner or brownie or poor dumb spic. Pointing out the scientific technicalities of race does not magically erase these experiences. Why do you guys constantly direct this kind of advice to minorities or those who defend them, but never to racist whites?
For instance, like Tina, you're also ignoring the fact that it was Josh, not me, who first used the term Mexican. Are you saying that if he had said "The white people will be running our country in 20 years," that would have had the same meaning? If that's not what you're saying, then why didn't you inform his racist ass that Mexicans and white people are the same race, rather then telling me that?
"A better question would be, "Do you believe it's a bad thing that the illegal Mexican population living in California is overwhelming the schools, the prisons and taking too much from welfare and health care?"
No, that would not be a better question, because that in no way relates to what Josh said.
Josh said "Mexicans," not "illegal Mexicans overwhelming the schools and prisons and taking too much from welfare." That would have been a valid, if still somewhat ignorant and annoying, complaint. But once again, his complaint lumped all Mexicans together. That. Is. Racism. Plain as day. If you don't see that, it's not because you're "color-blind." It's because you're just blind. Intentionally, willfully blind. And if the three of you, OV, Tina, and Jack, continue to debate in a manner where you are deliberately ignoring the apparent and well-known complexities of reality just so you can win an argument, I will no longer see posting here as exciting and at times even eye-opening. Right now, you are all wasting my time by making me explain very simple concepts to you, and I have enough distractions in my life. If your arguments don't improve, I will waste no more time here.
OV--"I don't say do nothing, I say do not do what the left thinks we should do when everything the left has ever done to fix a problem has caused other problems. And if we are talking about overpopulation then please consider the gentleman I know who lives in an area most people would cringe at even considering.
The man has built houses like his with septic systems, water systems all the while creating very low-cost greenhouse gardens (no grid electricity or gas required for heat) in arid conditions at nearly 10,000 feet elevation. All the while they enjoy the long winter that will probably include 8-foot-plus snow drifts and 100-mile-an-hour winds all while living in modest living quarters that most would cring at as being too big for society to manage. I have news for them, society does not have to manage, he and his family are managing quite well. They use wood for heating and cooking.
How did the Eskimos survive all those years, even before modern technology came around. Interestingly, since they have been introduced to modern technology they too have become lazy and unwilling to utilize the vastness God blessed them with.
Also as I said earlier, because of the modern technology, we have two of the largest human settlements in America right smack in the middle of the desert. Las Vegas Nevada and the Phoenix area of Arizona. Of course the only problem they have is the encroachment of liberal policies by the likes of Al Gore and his crowd who cause local politicians to bend over backwards before they even consider touching the resources they need for proper expansion.
Think about it, Southern California is in need of a lot of water, but instead of digging a big hole in the desert to the West of them and diverting all the rain that floods them in the winter to save for the summer months, they would rather worship the ground and the fish all the while allowing the water to drain out to the Ocean.
All it takes is the same spirit that originally built this country. Instead we have many, even on the right side of the political spectrum, that would rather believe their political enemies that we have only a small amount of habitable living space. So they buy into all the lefty ideas that only restrict their very freedom."
OneVike, it's all well and good to say that overpopulation can be solved if we all live like Eskimos or whatever your point was. The problem, again, is that this will never happen. You can't make people live like this, unless you become a completely socialist society, which neither you, me, nor Barack Obama want. And people are sure as hell not going to choose to give up the lifestyles that they've worked hard for willingly. So again, your solutions may work in theory, but that doesn't translate to "overpopulation is not a danger right now and never will be."
"The only real obstacles come from humans who desire to control every second of every persons life."
Hi, Pot, it's nice to meet you. I'm Kettle.
"What part of that comment to her was cruel?"
Hm, perhaps it was the part where you called her a murderer.
"It sure did piss you off though. Did you write it instead of whom said they did?"
No, OneVike. You see, some of us humans have this thing called empathy. It's when you're able to think about someone else's feelings and reflect them within yourself. I believe some guy named Jesus was a big proponent of this idea.
"I also asked for more clarity of her dilemma."
But this is a perfect example of a time when it's none of your business. Your voice has no place on the issue of what she chose to do here. And besides, the information she did give was powerful enough that you shouldn't need any more clarity. She was told she would most likely miscarry, and she wanted a sense of control in the face of that tragedy. That's a good enough reason to abort as any, and you do not need or deserve any more information than that.
"I look at abortion of any kind as murder, not just a medical procedure. I have been personally effected by the desires of others to end life before it has had a chance to even enjoy the air. After my mother had her 7th child, she was advised by the doctors to get a hysterectomy or she may die with another pregnancy. She did not have one.
A year and a half later she was raped and became pregnant. It was 1956 and abortions were illegal or, as my stepfather told me when I was 14, she would have had one. I was born and spent most of my first few years in the hospital, but eventually became strong enough to go home permanently.
My mother never experienced one problem during the pregnancy and she lived until she was 83.
You see, I take abortion very serious and it does qualify as a decision men are and should be involved with. So don't get so vulgar with me, when you do not know whence I come from."
OneVike, I can see why the fact that you were almost not born might make you biased on this issue and I am deeply, sincerely sorry about what happened to your mother. That is truly awful and no one should have to go through that. It must also have been very tough for you knowing the circumstances surrounding your conception. I can't imagine what that must be like, but you seem to have accepted the hand your family was dealt bravely and honestly, and I truly admire that. I know your intention was probably not for me to compliment you on your bravery, but I must say that I have a newfound respect for you after hearing that story. (Although I will not apologize for using the "F" word. It would not be sincere.)
It's kind of hard to illustrate my point after hearing that story without crossing into some very personal stuff for you, but I just have to say that I still am not convinced that a mother would be morally wrong to abort a child under such circumstances, even though I am glad you are alive today. And even if it is a moral wrong, I don't believe it's one that should be regulated by the government.
"Where did I ever say there would never be starvation? I even shared where the Bible says it will happen. What I said was starvation will not be because of overpopulation. I believe starvation will be caused by the policies of the leftist like YOU! Get your facts straight about where I stand and what I say. I also said there are those who think that the starvation mentioned in the Bible will be caused by overpopulation, I disagree with them. I do not believe there will ever be an overpopulated world.
You really need to take a class on reading comprehension, because you do not know what I am even talking about. You are so clouded by hate and anger you cannot properly understand what it is someone is trying to say."
OneVike, I apologize if I misunderstood you. It really seemed like you were saying that the Bible rules out overpopulation completely, and thus there was no need to worry about it happening. Again I apologize for my mistake, but I hope you can see how I could have made that error without being "clouded by hate and anger."
"As for you, I can only remark that your anger at the Christian community is so visceral that you will grab any news you can just to smear those you do not like. I would ask K, why she did not get upset for PS allowing this hatemonger to post a comment, but then again, K only gets mad when someone on the right comes off as being mean or insensitive."
First, I have never gotten upset at the PS team for allowing someone to post a hateful comment. I understand that this is a free space where almost any opinion is tolerated. What I have gotten angry at the PS team for is allowing such comments to stand unchallenged and unremarked upon. Since you replied immediately to this person, there is absolutely no reason for me to get angry with you over what that person said. Whereas in the case of Josh, the comment was not disputed by any of you and later you even defended it. So the situations are very different.
Secondly, the only part of that person's comment I found truly despicable was the part about legally controlling how many children a person can have. That is absolutely appaling and I was fully planning on calling it so. However, I do agree with most (but not all) of what that person wrote about the Quiverfull movement. Although this comment by Dan gives me hope:
"If you are not called to not using birth control, then by all do what God has called you to do."
My understanding of the Quiverfull movement was that they believe all birth control is sinful and against God, but this man seems to dispute that notion. Can you please clarify what the movement's position on this issue is, Dan?
OneVike, as for your constant assertion that I am not only a woman, but a lesbian, believe whatever you want about me. All I can do is assure you that I don't go around lying about myself on the Internet. I have been told that my writing often slips into a female voice--blame that on my being raised by a single mother and all-girl cousins. If you don't believe me, fine, but I will not respond to this stupid allegation again, as it is a complete waste of my time.
After some reflection, I would like to revise my opinion on one thing. I have realized that it was wrong of me to violate the rules of this space by using language you view as inappropriate, and I sincerely apologize for violating those rules. Sorry about the outburst, and I will try to avoid such language in the future.
I looked around for some information on this so called 'Quiverfull" group, and you would be astonished by the way life can be inside this cult...................Oh sure the Duggers are the perfect family they like to put out to the public as the front for their patriarchal society of cruel society where women are just tools for the men to have large family's they can control.
The Duggers have not been put out to the public as you say to be a front for some cult. Also, they did not make their money off the television program that features them and their children. The Duggers have been self sufficient from before they even started to have children. I don't know what kind of experience the woman you mentioned other than what you offered, but I have never heard anything of the such myself. I do believe that bad people are a part of every group or club, and if you look hard enough you can always find a bad apple in the bushel. As I said they are self sufficient and debt free. They own the property on which they built a house and have several rental properties.
I personally would never want a camera in my face all the time. But I don't think that those who choose to have a camera follow them around are necessarily exploiting their children either. I think each family would have be analyzed to see if that is the case. I do believe Christians should consider what the true motivation is before we automatically claim to do something we think God wants us to do. I say this because I believe many people do things, regardless of what it is, out of a desire to prove to others that they can accomplish something they themselves feel they cannot do, and Christians are not immune from human tendencies. However, all Christians are called to do everything in their power to treat that which God has entrusted to them with respect, while honoring and giving Him the credit in the process. We must all remember that ultimately love should be our motivation for doing what God has called us to do.
I see nothing wrong, per se, with birth control that is preventative, including natural family planning as long as the fertilized egg is not harmed. Also it should only be used for the purpose of medical reasons, not financial. I say that ,because ultimately we should have faith that God will give us no more than we can handle and thus He will supply that which we need to take care of that which He has blessed us with. I speak of course about the Christian family, not of those who do not have their faith in God. In the case of the Duggers, Michelle Dugger was on birth control after the birth of their first child and became pregnant and miscarried because of the birth control. It apparently affected them in such a way that they decided to never use birth control again control. Perhaps Mr Dugger should have chosen to use it, but they seem to have come to the decision that they are called to trust God with, when, and how often they get pregnant.
I do think the idea of trusting God with how many kids you have is Biblical. The reason is that throughout the Bible, we see teaching after teaching where we should trust God with our lives. This is not to say planning cannot be considered, but again there are limitations a Christian should remember. Ultimately we need to remember that God is in control and His plan is perfect. Some people are called to certain things that others would never be called to do. For instance, Joseph was called by God to take Mary as his wife even though she was not pregnant with his child. He followed God's wish and believed in the message from God about the whole incident. How many men would do that, God knew Joseph would, and that is why he was called to do something not all men would do. I can’t imagine being called to that. But he was and he obeyed.
I have known may people in my life who, whether they were a part of the quiverfull movement or not, have put all their faith in God and felt that they were called by Him to be fruitful and multiply so they had large families. Others do not feel called in that area, so they use artificial means to limit the number of children they have. I can only take their word for the fact that they used methods that are harmless to any possible life form. I see nothing wrong with either decision, it is between them and God. I have the utmost respect for those who trust God with their finances and their families. My experience has been that those families have less financial troubles than the Christians I met who did not fully trust God. In these areas our culture tells us that we should be sensible and responsible, but societies idea of being sensible and responsible includes dangerous birth control methods and abortions. My point is that God calls Christian families to trust Him in those areas. To me it makes more sense to be obedient to God than to do what the secular world calls sensible and responsible.
Now I know there are those in the secular world, and even some who claim to be christian, that think the idea of quiverfull is abusive towards women. I don’t doubt that there are groups who are oppressive in nature and embrace or require, the quiverfull concept to be followed by those whom God has not called. This does not mean that quiverfull idea in of itself is a bad thing among healthy God fearing Christians. To claim that the idea of God calling someone to have as many children as He desires for them is oppressive to women is just as wrong. That attitude itself is degrading towards those who willingly desire that type of life. Just because there are some who hold to that idea, does not mean they are oppressed because of it. That attitude is as bad as the feminists looking down their noses at people who believe have more than 2.2 children, because they are sure that the woman is being abused or oppressed by her dominating husband. To me that attitude is preposterous and by now anyone who has read my writings know how I feel about modern day feminists.
There are many Christian families that have only three or four children, and they too are looked down upon and often times hear remarks behind their backs while they are in public. As I said before, the only thing a Christian should worry about or even consider, is that they are trusting in God and that their family is healthy and well adjusted. It is not ones belief nor even the faith that causes people to be abused or oppressed, it is the people themselves. So to say the quiverfull idea causes people to be abused and oppressed is like saying that owning a gun will cause you to murder someone. Murder is both an act and a condition of the heart, and having a gun just provides one more way to do the act, but does not cause the act. Abuse and oppression are also conditions of the heart and acts. The quiverfull idea is no more responsible for the abuse or oppression than people breathing.
None of the people I have met or read about, who embrace the quiverfull concept are part of any group that was specifically created to promote the lifestyle. The ones I have met, usually find out about the quiverfull concept after they have already decided to have many children. There are those who have embraced the concept because they themselves are children of a quiverfull family. But by and large the majority have embraced the idea on their own through God's calling. Accept for the publicity of the Duggers, most who would be considered quiverfull thought they were unique in their calling and desires for large families. However, thanks to the Duggers their are now gatherings of those who share the same beliefs that get together once a year to share stories and enjoy a vacation.
Many do homeschooling and also homechurching, while others send their children to public schools and attend various churches from various denominations. As I said though, none of them are part of an organized group telling them its something they need to do, or that they need to force the world into doing. The people I have met that are considered quiverfull are simply living out their faith in God.
As for those like you Mary, who spread rumors, tell lies, and besmirch their character, I can only pray that God will touch you and help open the eyes of your heart so you can see the truth and how the love of those with a large family is truly what this world, or at least the modern world with which we here in America live, is missing.
it's all well and good to say that overpopulation can be solved if we all live like Eskimos or whatever your point was.
Again you mistake, my examples for my opinion of what we should be doing. I do not think we should live as the Eskimos lived and I do not think we should all live as my friend in the North lives, however I do believe that society as a whole can do much better at utilizing out planet if people like Al Gore and the environmentalist wackos are not given any credence.
These idiotic planet worshiping fools are standing in the way of actual technology that will allow us to utilize the planet to the best ability for man to survive. The Eskimo example and my friend up North are examples of what can be done when governments, especially liberal socialist nanny state governments get out of peoples way.
Like I said in an earlier comment, the most screwed up countries on this planet are not the ones that are, or were controlled by capitalism, but the ones controlled by totalitarian governments like the type Obama wants America to be. Look at North Korea, the former Soviet Union, the South African nations, China, and even Northern Canada where they are mining the Nickle for these stupid batteries they are using in electric cars. Just as they destroyed North Korea and many parts of the Soviet Union, they are doing it to Canada and want to do it to America.
In America we have fools who think we can take food from the mouths of the third world and put it in cars to run. Bio-fuels are only starving the third world, SOCIALISM AT IT"S BEST! I say allow capitalism to thrive and we will not only feed the world but we will run it to a better place than the Socialists you are in love with will ever do. Then we can have a planet that will be able to handle even 100 billion people with no problem. Yes 100 billion with no problem.
Think about this as we discuss racism, population control, and socialist ideas. While we are aborting our children and keeping below 2 children per family, in two generations your precious idea of homosexuals being free to practice their immoral lives and get married like normal humans, will come to a sudden end. It will end because they will not have to worry about someone you call homophobic trying to convert them to Christianity, because they will hiding back in the closet while the one's caught practicing their behavior in the open or even if they are suspected of doing so behind closed doors, will be beheaded in the town squares because the Muslims are overtaking Western Civilizations. And this is happening because the people you support for political power are discouraging families from having more than two children while the Muslims are having 8 children per family.
I say we should encourage all immigrants to become Americans and assimilate while encouraging American families to have 5 or 6 children to each the tide of what will be your worst nightmare. See as much as I really think Islam is evil, long before they come for me because of my religion, they will come after you for your support of immorality that they will be the judges of. Wake up and smell the coffee or don't bitch in 30 years when many on my side of the isle will say, "we told you so".
I am dropping this now because you still do not get it do you.
K: Seriously, Tina? I'm the one that brought race into this? I'm the one who first mentioned it? ** You are being deliberately, willfully ignorant here, and it's pissing me off. You're better than this."
Yes K, and for the last time, you were the first person to mention "race" in the context of racism when you said, "Why is this kind of blatant racism tolerated on this site?"
I did not hear racism in Josh's comment:
"That's why Mexicans will own this country in 20 years?"
Perhaps because I have read articles and books on the subject of assimilation and demography I heard the words differently. I still do not believe I could possibly know, from this one statement, anything definitive about Josh's attitudes regarding race.
As I said before, false accusations of racism are as repugnant as actual cases of racism...at least on this level. Racism is a very serious charge. Perhaps not having lived at a time when blacks were not allowed to go to the white, bathrooms lunch counters, motels, gas stations, or drink from the same faucet, attend the same church or other organizations or school has caused you to have a more shallow notion about what constitutes racism. My context includes death, oppression, and basically treating other human beings as less than ones beloved farm animals. A remark is far shy of that and a remark that is questionable as to meaning even more so.
I want to thank you, K, for having the decency to apologize and the courage to return and recommit to the standard we set. This requires a level of self-discipline that we expect from ourselves and all of our friends on Post Scripts as well and we realize it isn't always easy. You have conducted yourself admirably other than this one time. Realizing that passion at times gets the best of us, all is forgiven.
K, thank you for that. Your ability to have introspection and humility is why we enjoy your commentary so much, even if you do not always agree with us. Your good character and your excellent writing ability make you a worthy and significant part of the Post Scripts free speech endeavor.
We encourage you to write articles on the topic of your choice or respond to any of ours! We believe that some day you will be rewarded for your skill in ways you can't imagine at this point. We see talent in you K, you have a gift.
I love the Duggars. Although they are a bit crazy, they inspire me. Not to have as many children, but that if they can do it with 16 (now almost 17!), I can do it with 2! The fact that they don’t live beyond their means, that they built a house by themselves and don’t carry debt….with so many mouths to feed, what am I doing wrong that I can’t keep out of debt and manage my household like they can? It really makes me stop and think and draw inspiration.
Wow another baby! And I thought my uncle was extreme at having almost 8 kids. (Actually it would’ve been 8, if their one boy hadn’t been a still birth in 1995.)
Anyway, yes the Duggars have many, many children, however they are living within their means as well as they can, and probably find loophole ways to sometimes get extra food & supplies. (Going on TLC doesn’t hurt either, just look at the Rolloff family.)
Still though I wonder now, with some of the Duggar kids becoming teenagers and older, I wonder how much longer it’ll be until they “marry off” some of the oldest ones, to like minded families? Especially the daughters? I think Michelle Duggar was only 17 when she married, in 1984, however she didn’t begin having kids until a few years later. (It’s only a matter of time then for Janna and Jill…Still I rather doubt they’d want to become a mother as many times over as their own mother. lol!)
19 kids is a lot. And their older children must not have social lives, having to be second mommies and daddies, which if that suits them, then great. I was 12 when my mom had my youngest sister, and I would have died if I couldn’t have hung out with my friends.
I dont believe that this is right by any means!I saw the show and its sad that the older children are having to go on and raise their little brothers and sisters and not have a social life!These poor kids arent gonna wanna have any kids by the time they get done raising their brothers and sisters.
Jim and michelle should know when to stop!
Yes she says they are a blessing and I trully believe they are BUT he has to learn how to excuse me for saying this “PULLOUT”!!!
They are a blessing because she has no choice.How are they gonna put all these kids through college? Are they going to home-school that as well? I’m sorry but I think these people are extremely selfish. Just my opinion though!!!
And who is that nut that thinks we should all just kind of accept his understanding of what Christianity is. Give me a break.
I love the Duggars. Although they are a bit crazy, they inspire me. Not to have as many children, but that if they can do it with 16 (now almost 17!),
Did you miss something in the article? They are now working on #19, not #17.
what am I doing wrong that I can’t keep out of debt and manage my household like they can?
Maybe you can't count.
Thanks, Tina and Jack. My goal is to become a fiction writer, and I realize now that even when I feel like an argument is getting ridiculous, it is never a waste of time here. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to stretch my logic and writing skills in a way that I'd never get on a site where everyone mostly agreed with me. :) And thanks for the encouragement.
Tina,
"As I said before, false accusations of racism are as repugnant as actual cases of racism...at least on this level. Racism is a very serious charge. Perhaps not having lived at a time when blacks were not allowed to go to the white, bathrooms lunch counters, motels, gas stations, or drink from the same faucet, attend the same church or other organizations or school has caused you to have a more shallow notion about what constitutes racism. My context includes death, oppression, and basically treating other human beings as less than ones beloved farm animals. A remark is far shy of that and a remark that is questionable as to meaning even more so."
Tina, I understand that race relations have drastically improved over the past 50 years and I am grateful for that. I am not, however, willing to be complacent. There is still work to be done, and little remarks like this do matter.
Josh was indeed the first person to bring up race when he said that Mexicans would be running the country soon. I took that, quite logically, to be an angry racist statement, and I think it could be potentially harmful. As I alluded to before, replace the word "Mexicans" with "Jews" and you have the political climate of Germany circa 1940. It did not make sense in this context for Josh to simply be stating this as a matter of statistical fact. I have heard this kind of statement a million times and it it always a statement of hatred and ignorance, and it is often used to rile up fear, violence and discrimination against Mexicans.
Robin,
"what am I doing wrong that I can’t keep out of debt and manage my household like they can?
Maybe you can't count."
Yes, Robin. Everyone who struggles with money in their lives is just stupid and lazy and it's their own damn fault. You, on the other hand, will never have any problems managing your finances, because you are just that awesome, and things like that could never happen to a person like you.
Yes, Robin. Everyone who struggles with money in their lives is just stupid and lazy and it's their own damn fault. You, on the other hand, will never have any problems managing your finances, because you are just that awesome, and things like that could never happen to a person like you.
Let me tell you something little Missy, I have come a long ways from where I was raised in the depths of the deep south where the black family down the street donated food to us because my father was too ill to get permanent work. I am not so proud of my accomplishments that I don't get on my knees every day and thank the good Lord for my every meal, but I am not ashamed of the accomplishments I have achieved either.
I made a light hearted joke towards someone who seemed as though they were stuck in a time warp. Read her comment again and you might be able to understand the humor behind my response. You do not know where I came from nor what I can or cannot do, and I personally do not feel the need to share anymore than I already have with you. I will say this much though, I am always amazed how liberals who never had to worry where their next meal was coming from, always seem to stick up for those who will not even try to work for their next meal.
I am sure there will be a time when you will call me a racist also, because of what I may write about certain segments of our society, but be very careful of what you say because I am neither worried nor fearful of anything you may think. Someday I may just send you a picture of my happy conservative half black family you little twit. Believe me when I say that I am never at a loss for for words.
Robin--"Let me tell you something little Missy,"
That's "little Mister" to you!
"I have come a long ways from where I was raised in the depths of the deep south where the black family down the street donated food to us because my father was too ill to get permanent work. I am not so proud of my accomplishments that I don't get on my knees every day and thank the good Lord for my every meal, but I am not ashamed of the accomplishments I have achieved either.
I made a light hearted joke towards someone who seemed as though they were stuck in a time warp. Read her comment again and you might be able to understand the humor behind my response."
Robin, re-read your own comment and maybe you will see how it can easily be taken as condescending, mean-spirited and smug. That may not have been your intention, but the joke was just plain rude, and if anyone had told you a similar thing back when you were having financial troubles you may have had the same reaction I did.
Perhaps it would have been different had I heard your voice or seen your face when you made the joke...maybe the tone would have made a big difference in how that sentence could have been interpreted. Sometimes these kind of things don't translate well over the internet. So I will apologize and admit that perhaps I misinterpreted you, as long as you acknowledge that your remark could have been viewed as demeaning and apologize to Sarah in turn.
"You do not know where I came from nor what I can or cannot do, and I personally do not feel the need to share anymore than I already have with you. I will say this much though, I am always amazed how liberals who never had to worry where their next meal was coming from, always seem to stick up for those who will not even try to work for their next meal."
Robin, you are right in that I should not have assumed where you have come from or what your circumstances are, and you are under no obligation to explain your circumstances to me. That was wrong of me, but like I said, your comment certainly gave off the impression that you believed you were above those who struggled financially, even though that was not your intent.
However, in the very next sentence you proceed to make assumptions about my own financial status, right after criticizing me for doing the same to you. And while I believe I had at least some reason to draw conclusions about your financial status--though I turned out to be wrong, in more ways than one--I see no way you could have gotten the idea that I have "never had to worry about where [my] next meal was coming from." Your original comment also seemed to imply that you were making assumptions about Sarah's abilities and lifestyle. So perhaps making assumptions is a bad habit that we could both work on. Next time I see a comment like this, I will try and make sure I understand what your intent was before I get snippy, but I will also make it clear that the effect of such statements might be harmful.
I admire your ability to rise above your circumstances and achieve a better life for yourself. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think that's something to be "ashamed of." But your original statement indicated excessive pride, even superiority. I now believe that you did not mean it that way, but I will ask you to choose your words more carefully next time.
"I am sure there will be a time when you will call me a racist also, because of what I may write about certain segments of our society, but be very careful of what you say because I am neither worried nor fearful of anything you may think. Someday I may just send you a picture of my happy conservative half black family you little twit. Believe me when I say that I am never at a loss for for words."
Robin, I hope I never have reason to accuse you of behaving in a racist manner, even though you have just called me a "little twit." I will most likely never call you "a racist," because all of us say or do something racist at least a few times in our lives, so dividing people into racists and non-racists seems reductive to me. Racism is a behavior, and calling someone a racist just makes them much less likely to want to listen and work on that behavior and far more likely to deny, become defensive, and say things like, "I can't be racist, because I have black family members." It's a no-win situation.
Like I said, I admire certain qualities of yours, so I hope we can have a more respectful and open dialogue in the future.
Well said K.
I have to wonder why anyone would continue to use their uterus like an assembly line. The older children have to raise the younger ones and that they seem like little mechanical robots. Also I watched an episode of this woman in labor with her children standing around staring at her crotch but then in she simpers about her "modesty". The children are being pimped out to society and not allowed to have normal childhoods. They are brainwashed and I feel sorry for them in that respect. Glad they are God-fearing people but there are a lot of questionable behaviors on that show. wish them well. It's a gimick.