POST SCRIPTS

Sorry for my bad English. I believe in Jesus Christ, the only way to God. I believe every single word of the bible.

1.) Yes, it is an act of government. But if a president/gouverneur calls himself a christian, he must follow GOD's good commandments in every corner of his life. Both, American and German people live in a democracy. So, who is the authority? A dictator (as we had 70 years ago)? "The Party" (as we had until 18 years ago)?
- No, it's the people. You.

So: You are responsible for political decisions.

2.) On the other hand, if the accepting of the death-penalty is a question of following the authority (and you didn't think that you are the authority), why do you still support other christian values in politics (Family, against abortion and so on.)?

3.) Acts 5,29: "Peter and the other apostles replied: We must obey God rather than men!"

4.) It is also very important to see the context of Romans 13, when Paul said we should obey the "governing authority". A christian government or a christian-like government was far away. Nearly no reborn was standing in responsibility in a higher public position. Today, it is a totally different situation.

But, anyway, ask yourself: "Why do I prefer the death-penalty?" Do you live by His grace oder by his laws?

God bless you!

As a pragmatic response to evil and in particular to heinous serial killers and vicious rape killing, we should impose the death penalty. These monsters have a high likelihood of repeat actions and being incarcerated is no protection they won't viciously kill again. Even another inmate deserves protection from them.

A heat of passion or single killing may not always rise to the level of the death penalty and for that I am open to discussion.

Our laws are quite clear on what warrants a death penalty and it's very limited.

Next, I'm no Bible scholar but I've been taught by a number of Bible scholars that "Thou shalt not murder" was the correct usage in the 10 Commandments and the word "murder" was mentioned specifically in the Bible about a dozen time to differentiate it from the word "kill".

There is in my mind no prohibition from killing in self defense, to protect another from death or great bodily harm, to kill in war to defend your nation from aggression and many other circumstances including the government imposing the death penalty on vicious killers so they can't kill again.

Thank you for commenting funkiestbuddy. Your english is fine. I will try to respond with equal verbal agility. :-)

...if a president/gouverneur calls himself a christian, he must follow GOD's good commandments in every corner of his life.

A president /governor does not govern for himself but as a servant of the people. He can ask for Gods guidance in his decision making but he serves in a secular capacity and has a sworn duty to uphold the constitution/s and the laws. A person who has doubts about his ability to serve because of his beliefs, who cannot resolve his Christian faith to the duties of a government position, should not seek office.

So: You are responsible for political decisions.

YES...I agree. I am responsible. Responsibility is not an act of guilt or credit but of cause.

...why do you still support other christian values in politics (Family, against abortion and so on.)?

As a Christian I believe the family is part of God's plan for mankind. As a citizen I believe the family unit offers the best chance for human beings to realize their full potential and thereby create a healthier society. I am against abortion because I believe it is the taking of an innocent life. I also believe it is a matter for individual states to decide and not the federal government in America.

Acts 5,29: "Peter and the other apostles replied: We must obey God rather than men!" ** Romans 13, when Paul said we should obey the "governing authority".

You are better at quoting scripture than I, but in answer to your last question, I can support the death penalty because I do not believe it is against God to support this consequence. I do not see the penalty as an evil act. God has given us the commandments. When we fail to follow them we are subject to spiritual death (both here and in the afterlife). It is a consequence born of our own choice...we are responsible. We do not encourage another to brutally murder, rather we attempt to discourge the behavior. It is what Gods laws are designed to do...should we do less?

God bless you too, funkiestbuddy, and may He guide us as we seek a better understanding of his word.

Thank you, Tina, for your transatlantic response. :) I like your way of discussing this topic openly.

If I understand you rightly, you see the death denalty as a logical consequence of barbarous crimes. I'd like to comment this in three points.

1. The death penalty does not give a second chance. If somebody is killed and does not change his relationship to God, he will go to hell directly. Maybe such a situation (when he is confronted with his own death) will help the imprisoner to think about his life in a new way. But on the other hand, he is probably deterred by "the christians" who punish him in this way.

2. Sometimes it is not a consequence of our own choice. I think you are hearing this for about the 1000st time, but there were quite many people in the past that were killed wrongly, what jurists unfortunately found out too late. I really could not take such a responsibility...How must you feel, when you find out, that you came to the wrong decision? Don't want to think about that...

3. Yes, sin separates us from God. But no sin separates us more from God than others. If I wrote this post to you in a loveless way, it would be the same "value" of sin if I murdered my neighbour (actually, lovelessness is the worst sin). What the bible says: The consequence for murder is death. But: The consequence for my lovelessness is death, too. Judging me is God's job, no matter what sin I did. As Christians we can trust in Jesus Christ who will absolve us. Wow! :)

What is left behind is the responsibility for other people in our society. For example, they caught somebody that raped and killed children. What is my responsibility now? I don't have children (I am 20), but if I had, I'd REALLY did not want that rapist to walk around freely. I would jail him for the rest of his life with no option to get free again sometime. But I would not touch this border.

Well, we should treat everybody in the love Jesus gave us, no matter who it is. Look at Paul: In his fomer life as Saul, he killed many christians because they didn't believe in what believed. But what did Jesus? He could have killed him to prevent him from persecuting his disciples. That would be how human beings would react. But Jesus is different from us. He changed Saul's whole life and used him more than any other apostel. He forgave him and converted him totally.

But, dear Tina, I really don't want to put my point of view to an absolute standard. I come from a different a culture with a different past. Maybe I'm so strictly against death penalty because of German history, not only the Third Reich. Maybe I am too young. But my destiny is to find out God's will without any influence of my will.

It is wonderful to be able to discuss imporortant matters with thoughtful folks from across the Atlantic...great to hear back from you funkiestbuddy.

The death penalty does not give a second chance.

This is not true. The law allows for appeal, so much so, in fact, that in America people have spent many years on death row. Prisoner are allowed to recieve spiritual counceling.

...when he is confronted with his own death) will help the imprisoner to think about his life in a new way.

A death sentence surely should act as a wake up call to a convicted person and our system does not call for a person to go from courtroom to gallows so he would have time to think about his life.

...he is probably deterred by "the christians" who punish him in this way.

It is not "Christians" who determine the death penalty but the state. Some Christians are in favor and some are against. Our laws have different penalties for different crimes depending on severity. The law should act to support people in living decent lives...not clear the way for any whim or evil dastardly act.

Sometimes it is not a consequence of our own choice...there were quite many people in the past that were killed wrongly, what jurists unfortunately found out too late.

Yes, you are right about this. There have been a few cases where years later DNA evidence proved an innocent person was sent to his death wrongly and this is a most regretable circumstance. But no system is perfect and we can move forward in the knowledge that our ability to gather reliable evidence has been strengthened and improved.

How must you feel, when you find out, that you came to the wrong decision?

It would be a heavy burden and I would have to live with my decision. On a personal level, as a Christian, I would ask forgiveness from God for whatever part I played. There are many jobs in life where the possabilities for making mistakes is part of the job. Surgeons for instance and certainly soldiers or police officers. They take care, they do the best they can...but they are not gods...not perfect. Also in life there are forces at work that just do not make sense...mysteries greater than any human can unravel. Why does one person find himself accused and punished wrongly while another manages to escape detection. It's not fair but it happens all the time. There are some things beyond our control.

The consequence for my lovelessness is death

I am going to assume you wrote this because you see those who favor the death penalty as coming from hate or revenge or heartlessness. The truth is it has nothing to do with feelings or attitude. In fact it pains me that human beings find themselves in this position...I grieve for their souls. I can forgive them; I will not excuse them. If I tell you not to touch the stove because you will be burned, and you touch it anyway, is it lovelessness or brutality that caused your burns or is it your own willfulness and pride? We must honor the laws that govern us or we weaken them and create uncertainty about the law.

For example, they caught somebody that raped and killed children. What is my responsibility now? I don't have children (I am 20), but if I had, I'd REALLY did not want that rapist to walk around freely. I would jail him for the rest of his life with no option to get free again sometime. But I would not touch this border.

I respect your opinion and understand it too. I was once "only 20" and I held the same opinion as you. The person you describe would likely recieve a life sentence in America. The death penalty, as Jack indicated in his post, is reserved for heinous crimes. We had recently in America a man who took a child from her home, brutally raped her and buried her alive. He received the death penalty and showed absolutely no remorse. Our law makes a distinction between bad crimes as you described and unthinkable crimes as this man willfully committed.

But Jesus is different from us.

Truer words were never spoken! Jesus was perfect and we are not.

But, dear Tina, I really don't want to put my point of view to an absolute standard. I come from a different a culture with a different past.

Not so very different. My father was of German heritage...his mother came to America when she was 15 years old. His father came to America when he was a baby with his widowed father. I am, of course, American through and through but my German heritage is part of my experience and impacted my formative years. Like most Americans I share a fondness for things of "the old country." In my case it is "countries"...mostly Germany but also a bit of England and France.

I enjoyed this exchange with you. I hope you will post again if the spirit moves.