POST SCRIPTS

Jack, are you asking me to simply suppress my thoughts, or are you saying we should muzzle a free press?
How many civil rights are we going to give up in the pursuit of "freedom?"

Quentin, thank you for your thoughts, however you should know by now I would never demand we suppress anyone's civil rights, nor would Tina. Note: Tina posted this thread, however I find no flaw in the conclusions of this scientific research article.

It is absolutely your right to take your thoughts to the streets and say what you will about anything and if there is some sort of nexus to your actions, say provoking violence and encouraging an enemy, then so be it, this is the price of freedom.

However, and I believe this is Tina's point in posting the article, freedom of speech does not absolve anyone from the consequences of their actions, this too is the price of freedom. Better we should give pause to understand what those consequences are and then weigh our intended actions against the predictable results they will cause.

Bottom line: Freedom works best when people know when and when not... to use it.

Tina, thank you for this wonderful post which really drives home a point that seems to be lost on many today. With freedom comes responsibility.

The opponents of this war don't wish to "own" the results of their actions. I was a sophomore in high school when the Viet Nam war ended. It too, was a very unpopular war at home. The result, besides being drawn out for years, costing hundreds of thousands of American deaths, Viet Nam fell to the communists,

The Khmer Rouge, which had sided with the communists, ruled Cambodia with Iron Glove that Hitler would have envied, then, Pol Pot, who probably had communist envy, tried to take on Viet Nam and lost. But not before hundreds of thousands were brutally murdered.

Quentin, I too, had teachers who were very vocal against that war. I saw one of them the other day and he had a “Free Tibet” bumper sticker on his car. The irony was not lost on me.

Quentin, I have studied much about this enemy, because I have a vested interest in the outcome of this war, besides being an American and a person of faith. (A faith which happens to be non-Islamic) I have one son fighting, I have one son, whose non-active reserve commitment is not yet completed, I have one son who is in his early teens, and I have another son and a grandson, who hopefully will come to age long after we have won this war. My prayer is that we come together and support this mission, win it, and leave. . Frankly, that won’t happen while the self important pontificators find it “patriotic” to say things which embolden our enemies, enemies who have a stated objective of using our own freedoms to bring us down. Sound familiar?
My eldest son does not take anything he does in the military lightly. He has been to Iraq; he has worked with the Iraqi government, and more importantly, the Iraqi people. If your actions in protest were to lead to our withdrawal, Iraqis who have fought for freedom, and opposed this enemy will certainly be systematically murdered, but this enemy has no compunction about murdering their combined families as well. Just to send a message to others. This is similar to what the communists did in Viet Nam.

If you find this outcome acceptable, our country allows for you to proceed freely. If you find this outcome repugnant and reprehensible, human decency dictates you stop.

No, Quentin, none of us here would ever try to suppress your freedom of speech, but we respectfully request you own the results of your actions; YOU embolden our enemies and put our soldiers at greater risk. If you find that acceptable, our country allows for you to proceed, if you find it reprehensible and repugnant, human decency dictates you stop.

That responsibility also applies to the press. Their freedom is not in dispute, but the resposibilty they bear when they broadcast troop location, or tactics we use which are effective, aslo go to giving aid to our enemies.

I would also suggest you study the doctrine and practices of those who your actions help. It isn't difficult, look at other places in the world where islamic extremists are involved.

Do you really think your freedom of speech will flourish under them?

Quentin, Thank you for posing questions that are important to this discussion. My friends here at Post scripts have done a bang up job of answering your query and expressing my own thoughts about supressing freedom of speech. Of course I was not suggesting that and yes, I do think it's time that protesters were held to account for the choices they make to speak out against war.

I was in my late teens and early twenties during the Viet Nam war. I have a friend who survived the killing fields of Cambodia. I do not take lightly my accusations against those who protest war in dramatic and flagrant ways. My experience is that many of them hold themselves above it all with not a single thought given to the effect they might be having. It disgusts me and the contempt they showed our vets is, to me, the most vile and unpatriotic act I can think of.

I do have a question for you, Quentin. How many civil rights have you had to give up? I hear a lot of talk about this but have not seen or heard of a single legitimate case of someone losing his rights. If you have I'd like to hear about it.

First of all Quentin, I have personally seen you "suppress thought" on your site when it didn't suit you.

Secondly, I think all were trying to say is that if you're going to speak out against military action once it has already taken place, thats fine, but your freedom to do so doesn't absolve you of the responsibility for what happens as a result of your actions.

There may be times when speaking out IS the right thing to do...but you had better understand the costs. Allot of people on the anti war front seem to think that freedom of speech somehow happens in a vacuum, or that freedom of speech equals freedom from responsibility. If you speak out against this war, and future events prove you right, than good on you, however, if future events prove you wrong, then YOU DO bear some responsibility for our defeat.

Either way, you do make it more difficult for the troops to do their job. So it damn well better be worth it!

And that is the uncomfortable truth.

P.S.

For those of you on the antiwar side who think that the enemy doesn't gage their activities based off of your actions, you are naive. That is not a new tactic, and we have seen enemies do it to us since the Philippine Insurrection.

It doesn't take a strategic genius to see that Americas weak spot is our politicians and media not our divisions.

It would seem that the lowest level cell leader in Al Qaeda has figured out what the most "enlightened protester" cant seem to grasp.

Mr. Freitas, with all due respect to you, sir, I do not embolden the enemy. The enemy is emboldened when they see what our no-penis-president does to try and build up his missing manhood.
They are emboldened when they see Gee Dumbya cut funds for veterans and get miserly with a lousy nine-dollar-a-month pay raise.
They are emboldened when we can't even decide what victory is.
They are emboldened when we start a war without a strategy.
I don't embolden the enemy. This Administration--or the lack of administration--is what emboldens the enemy.
Tina, are you aware of the genesis of the killing fields? Do you honestly believe that happened with no outside input? Can you not see how our actions led to that?
What rights have I lost? Thanks to the patriot act, I am no longer secure in my person, papers, or effects.

More on "emboldening."
It isn't just the lack of action on the part of this administration that inflames the enemy.
Remember when Robert Mapplethorpe did the art exhibit with "Piss Christ?" Were you offended?
Do you think the Muslim people might also be offended when we set up our "Den of Iniquity" right in the middle of their country? When we broadcast our filth that passes as entertainment to them?
Do you think people whose religion commands socialism might be offended by our capitalist ways? Ways that ignore the Islamic tenets of charity? Ways that leave the majority of them in abject poverty when they live on top of the most valuable of natural resources?
Pointing the finger at protesters is what emboldens the enemy. If their goal is to take away our freedom--as Gee Dumbya says--then they know they need do very little. Our government is doing the job for them!

Mr. Er Uncomfotable Truth. To say you don't embolden the enemy is pure denial. I havent always agreed with this president, but for someone with no "manhood" he sure has stood by his principals on this account. And I never took Psych 101, like I'm sure you have, but if he were trying to "build up his missing manhood", wouldn't he just have sex with a 21 year old intern? Or is that your measure of a man?

And it is our freedoms which turn this enemy against us, they were against us long before we went into Iraq. They see us as secular non Islamic and as such we should cease to live.

Al Jazeera has an english web site, Our enemy is not only emboldened by protesters here, the media etc, they hold you up as justification for what they are doing.

Tina, the answer to your question is that Quentin has not had to give up a damn thing as the result of this war. And he still won't take responsibility for his actions against those who have. Theres the "uncomfortable truth"

Quentin, I think you are the type guy who would make fun of someone who was afraid of say communists taking over our country, as being "paranoid" but you seem to see the FBI crawling all over your person, papers and effects. But you can't really come up with a specific freedom you have had to give up.

Quentin most of your remarks about our president and his administration are from a twelve year old mind and not worth adressing. There are a few things I'd like to say.

The information at hand along with the advice given our president at the time guided the development of a plan for this war. As the war progressed not everything worked perfectly, that is the nature of war. Your criticisms are generic blather. Your criticisms are not designed to lend support or offer alternatives but rather only to destroy or undermine and so they are useless. Your imput is not in any way helpful...so what exactly are you up to? What do you wish to accomplish? I have to tell you, you sound like a lunitic with a lot of unfounded resentment and that's all. You offer nothing that would further the development of Iraq...our soldiers are working on this every single day and our media cannot be bothered to show you and I and the rest of the world the great work they are doing. That emboldens our enemy...they love hearing your point of view instead. Information about of the positive things America has done are available. Aren't you even curious to know about it? And by the way the Iraqi government has asked us to stay in Iraq...people seem to forget that.

I cannot read your mind but would love to hear what you believe the "genisis of the killing fields" was. If you'd like to share, I'll post it as an article and we can debate.

I cannot believe that you get up each day, shaking in your boots, knees knocking, hiding in the shadows for fear you'll be stopped by the brown shirts as you make your way to work. Please don't trivialize the issue of oppression with silly fears about the Patriot Act. For those all over the world who do live under real oppressive governments it is insulting, dishonest...and petty.

America is the most charitable country on the planet...you are deluded by your apparent hatred of capitalism.

Also whatever "den of iniquity" acts or images that might offend Iraqi's have been promoted, defended and celebrated by the progressive, socialist, leftist thinkers in America. That would be folks closer to your mindset by my calculations. All people are capable of tawdry behavior but only the left in America excuses, defends and celebrates it.

Are we back to the ad hominem?
I was unaware that insults were how an argument was advanced.
Unfortunately, the fallacies in your replies are too numerous to list in the time I will allow.
Curious though how about you instantly referred to President Clinton with a reference to an intern. Sounds like dittohead talk. At least I think for myself.
'Tis not communism I fear, but fascism. And people like Tina who say my fears are petty.
That's the same thing they told people who feared the Nazis.
Truly, the people who will allow fascism because some fool on the radio does their thinking for them scares me more than my government does.
I only stifle unoriginal opinions--nonsense we have all heard before.
My plan for Iraq is on my blog.

I was unaware that insults were how an argument was advanced.

Oh really?

1. our no-penis-president does to try and build up his missing manhood.
2. when they see Gee Dumbya
3. lack of action on the part of this administration
4. we set up our "Den of Iniquity" right in the middle of their country?
5. When we broadcast our filth
6. Ways that leave the majority of them in abject poverty
7. If their goal is to take away our freedom--as Gee Dumbya says--then they know they need do very little. Our government is doing the job for them!

Please explain how any of these insults advances the argument as to whether or not antiwar protests and media coverage emboldens the enemy?

You wag a finger at the mention of Clinton and then immediately hurl another insult (dittohead talk)as if that meant something, followed by yet another insult:

Truly, the people who will allow fascism because some fool on the radio does their thinking for them scares me more than my government does.

The articles by Jack and myself and those we post from other sources provide sufficient evidence that you don't know what you are talking about.

Quentin there's not a dimes worth of difference between fascism and communism and neither of these is what conservatism is about. Progressive ideas on the other hand are very similar to both.

What you fear is nothing more than a figment of your own imagination.

I asked for examples where the Patriot Act had denied you freedoms. You gave me a generalization. Thus, I believe your fears are petty...particularly given the millions of people who suffer each day under truly oppressive regimes...shame on you!

I'll be going on over to your blog now to read your plan for Iraq...can't wait!!

Quentin says: "Are we back to the ad hominem?
I was unaware that insults were how an argument was advanced."

How does Quentin now, add up to Quentin 1 post ago who used the "Bush is a eunuch" argument?

Quentin says: "Unfortunately, the fallacies in your replies are too numerous to list in the time I will allow."

Translation...Quentin doesn't have an adequate response, so he will ignore your comments, and hope that will suffice. Having been to his blog, I can see why he would think that this is a clever strategy. Perhaps he is unfamiliar with this site where rational, logic and proper intel and analysis are more effective than ignoring your opponent.

Quentin, I am willing to guess that your interaction with our enemies is limited. Your knowledge of history may be extensive, your understanding seems to be sorely lacking.

The enemy is emboldened by anti war sentiment. This isn't just "Nicks analysis" this can be seen in the writings of our enemies. Perhaps you can apply the same strategy toward them that you appear to be trying here...simply ignore what they have to say because it doesn't fit into your narrow world view.

As far as your knowledge of Islam...well where do I start...

First of all, even the Arabs have found ways around Koranic usury laws (i.e. loaning money, which is a key component of capitalism). Secondly, you may have an argument that the Shia sect is far more disposed to authoritarian governance since they believe that the position of Caliph should have been determined through heredity; but the Sunni advocate leadership through consensus of the Ulema or Islamic community.

Furthermore, I would remind you that the Constitution never granted you absolute freedom or security in your person or papers.

I also find it strange that a person such as yourself who feels we are on the brink of fascism would be so bold as to comment on a open forum where any of us imperial storm troopers might monitor.

I haven't read you "plan for Iraq", but then again someone who feels that "Bush has no penis" is a rational argument probably doesn't deserve a great deal of consideration when considering complex geo-political strategy.

Your responses offered no logical or even coherent answer to any of the questions posed to you...I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Anytime you would like to exchange ideas rather than MoveOn.org talking points, or your own brand of debate through slander i would be most happy to do so. Not on your site though, since I have been witness to your method of closing down debate when it stops going in your favor. One might say, that the method in which you govern your blog, is far more fascistic then the way this administration (reelected I might add) has run the country.

P.S. Your concern for wounded veterans is admirable, if only it was matched with a similar concern for those actively serving. I hear a ounce of prevention (proper funding of the military) is worth a pound of cure (taking care of the returning soldiers you voted against funding during peace time).

Just back from Quentins blog and I confess I found nothing that remotely amounted to a "plan for Iraq". I did leave a comment or two on one piece about history lessons and Iraq.

If you're still out there Quentin, a title for the appropriate post would be helpful.

Yes Quentin, I made the comment about Clinton. in response to your comments about Bush's manhood. Ad Nauseum would be more appropriate. Do you really know the deffinition of Fascism? Curious though that you instantly marginalize me as someone who simply listens to Rush Limbaugh. And as far as thinking for yourself you don't have one original thought in your post. I will wait for you to have the time to list the fallicies you found in my post though, I suggest you take it to the teacher's lounge, I'm sure you will find those who agree with you there, or your class maybe, I suppose its easy to get minds of mush to agree with you, what with grades hanging over their heads. Try to at least be Intellectually honest. Remember Quentin, you're talking to adults now, who have actually done things in life, in the world, outside of the classroom.

One correction..the Islamic community is known as the "umma" not the "ulema", which is the term used for Islamic religious scholars.

Sorry about the confusion.

P.S. did I read that correctly...Quentin is a teacher!?! Of what?

P.S. did I read that correctly...Quentin is a teacher!?! Of what?

I think history...heaven help those kids if he teaches like he blogs. But I'm only guessing. One of his posts tells about what he told his class and it was about history and war. I wonder if he'd have the courage to ask a few vets to give a little talk to his class? One from the Viet Nam war and one from this war would be interesting.