by Tina Grazier
Thanks, Meagan, for taking the time again to post here at Post Scripts. You offer a great opportunity to communicate and reach understanding. Like you, I appreciate conversation that leads to greater knowledge and clarity and to that end definitions work but they dont tell the whole story. The dictionary definition of liberal, for instance, bears little resemblance to what has been commonly accepted as political liberalism in practice today. This may be one source of misunderstanding in our political discourse. My references to liberals or liberalism are reflective of the actions of modern day liberals and not the dictionary definition. I believe in being liberal in many thingscharity, love, kindness, acceptance, forgiveness, etc. But now, lets get specific:
The signers of the Declaration of Independence were accused of being liberal, essentially for believing in autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties. And that is not any different from what I believe in.
These are not concepts that belong to liberals, however, and modern day activist liberals have successfully put forth the notion that conservatives dont value individual autonomy or the protection of political and civil libertiesand that is absurd. The signers were called liberal for desiring to be free from the authority of a king…all Americans value this break with feudalism.
they fought slavery, fought for women to have the right to vote, fought against Hitler, Stalin, fought to end segregation, fought to end apartheid. Liberals put an end to child labor and they gave us the five day work week
Liberals did not do these things, Americans did. These do not belong to liberals, yet you claim them as if only liberals fought for these things. As you pointed out in one instance, republicans played an important roll in bringing these things about and in actuality, it was democrats in the south that fought against civil rights battles. It would be great if we could just talk about overcoming these things in terms of what Americans have accomplished together by wrestling with ideas. Unfortunately, since the sixties, liberal activist democrats have continued to lie, distort and the rewrite history concerning the intentions and actions of republicans, conservatives and incredibly, Christians. They have done it in the news, in our institutions of learning and in books and movies. We have only begun to try to correct the record in the last twenty years.
When Barbara Stiresand said this, she was commenting on the definition of being a liberal as well. It was not a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change that fought for women to vote, for the abolition of Hitler and Stalin, who still strive to end segregation, and fought to end apartheid. It was liberals who forged these battles.
It was indeed American traditional ideals and institutions that gave the very space for these changes to occur. We Americans agreed to a political structure of government and rights that became a basis to forge these corrections to the human condition. Not only have liberals claimed this as their exclusive property they have evolved to a place where they no longer fight for individual equalityinstead they fight for special rights or group rights pitting one group against another. Americans are defined and defended by race, sex, creed, social and economic status by liberals not conservatives.
The idea that because I do not agree with our President I am therefore giving aid and comfort to the enemy is asinine! And although I know I am pretty knowledgeable in the state of world affairs, having been to 17 countries, and being interested in different cultures and their political states, I wonder how you can lecture me on my ignorance since this site dose little to discuss political issues on a global level. I would love some specific examples of irresponsible behavior towards elected government
First of all it wasnt a personal observation, I dont know you. I didnt say disagreement with the president constituted giving aid and comfort. I was referring to those who make political speeches against our president and our country on foreign soil especially when we are engaged in war and I was speaking about Nancy Pelosi, for instance, taking it upon herself to meet with the head of Syria as if she had the authority to speak for our country (and Israel) when she does not.
theyre politicians. Cause and effect is a demon we are all accountable to political party has nothing to do with this one!
The point is that certain activist political liberals have trouble looking at anything they do with a discerning eye. No black and whiteno right or wrong, remember? And they believe that because they have shown they care, whatever they have done is to be celebrated, regardless of consequences. They will not consider the negative unintended consequence, they do not evaluate outcomes, they therefore cannot make corrections and anyone who attempts to point out another way is labeledbigoted, homophobic, sexistyou know the drill.
Two wrongs have never made a right. And I am sure we have no idea who started demonizing their opponents liberal or conservative but dont you think its time we stop it? And the comment Conservatives didnt start fighting back until the late nineteen eighties? Where did you get that fact?
If we get lost in generalities we can never face that which is right in front of our faces. I didnt get this fact from a particular sourceI lived it, I observed it. I cannot speak with any authority prior to the sixties, I was too young, but I lived through the radical movement that started in the sixties and seventies. I witnessed the lies and distortions made by the left about conservatism and republicanism and I witnessed the farce that was passed off as balance in our media. I have been privy to the propagandizing that has taken the place of a good liberal arts education in our schools. I have witnessed the propagandizing of leftist ideology and the demonizing of the Christian and Jewish religions, strong men and traditional marriage in media and movies. Civil objections and questions about these things were initially met with derision and name calling. This indifference and arrogance spawned a movement that began in the early eighties and has grown to a sizable force since then.
I think most conservatives see things in black and white; you are friend or enemy, right or wrong, patriotic or traitor. There is no room for a grey area in the conservative mindset, and Im sorry, but people are chock-full of grey areas. I think liberals just try to remember that.
Youre making a very black and white case against conservatives. As I discovered when recovering from the grey disease myself, black and white is not restrictive, rather it is freeing. It isnt that people are labeled as friend or foe indiscriminatelyit is that after careful consideration and observation a conservative is willing to admit or acknowledge that someone is friend or foe based on that persons actions and words observed over time. I think it is very valuable, especially in todays world, to have the capacity to determine an enemy by his actions and behaviors. We put our children at risk when we limit and restrict their ability to evaluate, and yes judge others, based on their actions, associations and words. We lie to them when we pretend that people are all the same, all basically good. We do them disservice when we teach them that self expression and choices are all relative and all actions are OK as long as the person feels valuable or happy. Conservatives welcome and embrace disagreement and differences just as you have describedwhat we dont appreciate is the absence of appropriate discernment or the ability to call a criminal or vile act wrong. Liberalism is inconsistent…a liberal has no problem condemning one group for a perceived offense while excusing, forgiving and uplifting another for the same perceived offense. Conservatism seeks to treat all people the same. (Acknowledging there are always a few exceptions)
The way humans experience the world is one of those magical grey areas I mentioned above it has been documented time and time again that people who experience the same event remember it in different ways.
No one has suggested that all people see things or experience things in the same exact wayits interesting that you assume that this magical grey area would be a new concept for conservatives. This speaks to the mistaken perceptions that liberals have about conservatives. The argument isnt whether or not there are times when things are grey, the argument is that there are times when things are definitely yes, or no. Many liberals will not make this distinction. Whether just to sidestep uncomfortable confrontations to ideology or from lack of education or experience it is indicative of someone who will not take a stand and cannot be counted on, particularly in important or dangerous matters and times.
Iraq did not pose any threat to our nation. Even if they had weapons of mass destruction and there are not many who believe they did our treatment of the entire situation served as more of a catalyst to insight an attack, as opposed to stopping one. And our continued occupation is doing nothing but causing unrest in countries all over the world.
I dont know Meagan, this sounds like a pretty black and white opinion to me. Is there no room in your reality for the notion that this pattern of hatred and destructive murderous behavior by radical factions in the Islamic world has been building since the seventies? Is there no room in the grey world that had we not engaged these factions, attacks of a more severe nature would come have to our shores? These are among the questions our president had to consider and based on the past pattern of behavior he determined that we had to begin to fight back before they were successful with nuclear or biological attacks. Im not sure I could have done any differently given I had that awesome responsibility following 911. I recently posted a link to a video in which Al Gore in 2002 made the case for the danger that Saddam posed to our nation. Liberal democrats like Al Gore change their opinions based entirely on who is holding the reins of power and how the political tea leaves read, and not on the facts or severity of the situation. We are still in Kosovohow many Americans even are aware of thatand how many protests have there been? And how many cries of occupation did you, or have you heard?
For the record, we are not occupying Iraq. We were asked to stay by the newly elected leaders of the new nation of Iraq. They have continued to ask for our assistance in fighting the fanatical elements in their society. Its a cause that would be right up the liberal alley were it not deemed Bushs war. The proof? When Bill Clinton unilaterally went into Kosovo, peaceniks said little or nothing and Bill Clinton was held up as a hero. The inconsistency to principle is telling. The liberal activists care about political power and personal legacy…period.
In no time or place has one persons experience of the world been taken down as fact. Never!
Pardon me for butting in to comments directed toward Steve. I use this statement only as an opportunity to move toward clarity. I dont think anyone believes that an experience can be taken down as fact. The point is that a first person account can contain compelling facts that are more illuminating than an attitudinal or philosophically motivated perception. The radical left is making claims about what is happening in Iraq without benefit of personal eye witness or knowledge of classified information or operations. They are doing it attitudinally as a political statement meant to harm or defeat our efforts. Its clear from your writing you dont fall into this category but that doesnt mean the category doesnt exist.
Well, Meagan, we have covered a lot of ground. I wont follow through on this thread againits too far back in time and I think that would be too hard on both of us! It would probably be wise in future if we could keep these exchanges to specific points. I do hope you will participate with us again.
I posted this reply earlier today at the original location. Jack, it was incredibly clever of you you to repost Meagan’s comments here where everyone will likely see it…don’t know why I didn’t think of that!