by Jack
Yesterday the Greeks were out in the streets cheering because they told the EU to take their bailout plan and shove it.! However, it may be one of the shortest celebrations in history when the banks close.
The Greek people have long enjoyed an affluent lifestyle, much of it built around the popular pastime of avoiding taxes. It’s estimated that 89.5% of all taxes in Greece remain uncollected. In Germany this number is around 2%.
Prior to the economy going belly up, Greeks once enjoyed a fabulous retirement system – now not so much. Still, more cuts are needed says EU.
Before the 2010 pension reforms, pastry chefs, along with radio announcers, hair stylists, supermarket cashiers—and more than half a million other people who worked in any one of 580 professions—qualified for early retirement because their careers were deemed hazardous and arduous. A Greek citizen only had to work 15 years to qualify for the basic retirement package. Greek government workers still receive 150% of the base pay for vacation pay and 22.3% of all workers work for the government. The EU would like to see this number under 20%.
Greece also enjoyed a popular, low cost healthcare system for a long time (all on credit) that was the envy of pro-socialized medicine democrats in the USA. . . until the money ran out. Now its in ruins. Prior to this their healthcare system spent tons on brand-name drugs rather than far-less-expensive alternatives. Since the entire system is clogged because of unpaid bills, many pharmacies have closed down. The hospital drug lockers are becoming empty as suppliers refuse to deliver meds because there is little chance they will get paid. The healthcare in Greece has imploded. This has forced providers to work long periods without pay and the lack of medical access has had deadly consequences. (Democrats – are you paying attention? It could happen here.)
Because Greece was a socialist leaning country, it was mired in bureaucracy. Too many regulations, permits, fees, taxes, etc., and that made them uncompetitive amongst their European counterparts. A Greek worker might be efficient, but if the system isn’t, its all for naught. The McKinsey study detailed this and two of their problems are noted here:
“First, Greece has the lowest labor participation rate in all of Europe — just 66 percent of the employable population have jobs, compared with 73 percent in the European Union and 70 percent in Southern Europe.
Second, not only are fewer Greeks working, those who do are far less productive: A Greek worker’s productivity comes in at $35 an hour, compared with $49 an hour in the EU, $55 an hour in Central Europe, and $58 and hour in the U.S.”
Because Greece is where the American democrats want to take this country, it should be mandatory that every leftist democrats in Congress read the McKinsey report and then spend two weeks in Greece living on their new basic retirement wage of about $639 a month. If this is the workers Utopia our socialists want, then I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell them.
I’m sure if Margaret Thatcher could say I told you so she would.
“The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”
Watching the interviews of the Greek people with their entitlement attitudes would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. They honestly believe Europe will give them more money by taxing hardworking people in other countries.
The few who seem to realize Europe won’t bail them out again are talking about moving to another country. Hope they don’t come here expecting us to support them.
They made their beds with expensive Egyptian sheets, I hope they enjoyed them while they lasted. It’s time now for cheap cotton sheets from WalMart.
Indeed.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0430/Greek-island-of-the-blind-More-like-island-of-welfare-cheats
As I heard someone quip, “What are the major industries in Greece? Tourism and yogurt.”
The young, naive, liberal Democrats don’t know history and don’t have any idea who Margaret Thatcher was. But they flock to the campaign of Bernie Sanders because he promises the same something for nothing entitlements to be paid for by “the government.”
Don’t look to the Liberals in the USA criticizing the Greeks, they are following their path, They(Liberals)have reduced a proud, strong country to a laughing stock of the world…
Posted on a conservative site this July, basically it is a Canadian Version of David Letterman’s Top 10.
It goes without saying that following the direction of dependence, which we are being herded too makes us look like idiots we are…
“# 10 Only in America… could politicians talk about the greed of the rich at a $35,000.00 per plate Obama campaign fund-raising event.
# 09 Only in America… could people claim that the government still discriminates against black Americans when they have a black President, a black Attorney General and roughly 20% of the federal workforce is black while only 14% of the population is black, 40+% of all federal entitlements goes to black Americans – 3X the rate that go to whites, 5X the rate that go to Hispanics!
# 08 Only in America… could they have had the two people most responsible for our tax code, Timothy Geithner (the head of the Treasury Department) and Charles Rangel (who once ran the Ways and Means Committee), BOTH turn out to be tax cheats who are in favor of higher taxes.
# 07 Only in America… can they have terrorists kill people in the name of Allah and have the media primarily react by fretting that Muslims might be harmed by the backlash.
# 06 Only in America… would they make people who want to legally become American citizens wait for years in their home countries and pay tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege, while they discuss letting anyone who sneaks into the country illegally just ‘magically’ become American citizens. (Probably should be number one).
# 05 Only in America… could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country’s Constitution be called EXTREMISTS.
# 04 Only in America… could you need to present a driver’s license to cash a check or buy alcohol, or board a commercial aircraft, but not to vote.
# 03 Only in America… could people demand the government investigate whether oil companies are gouging the public because the price of gas went up when the return on equity invested in a major U.S. Oil company (Marathon Oil) is less than half of a company making tennis shoes (Nike).
# 02 Only in America… could you collect more tax dollars from the people than any nation in recorded history, still spend a Trillion dollars more than it has per year – for total spending of $7 Million PER MINUTE, and complain that it doesn’t have nearly enough money.
# 01 Only in America…. could the rich people – who pay 86% of all income taxes – be accused of not paying their “fair share” by people who don’t pay any income taxes at all.”
The eventual and inevitable down side of socialism has been evident in the oppression and financial despair of citizens in many countries around the world. I understand radicals in leadership can continue to be dedicated, they want power and control and they are never hurt financially. I don’t understand the average person who continues to support socialism.
While no system is perfect the free market system backed by the rule of law remains the best system for the most people. Charity picks up the slack. Conservative policies that honor our freedoms, keep taxes low and keep spending down work best within that system.
Our politicians have been working against the best system for decades. It’s time to reclaim it. Greece should be a wake up call.
Aw come on, Jack. Socialism works, just ask Chris.
Nice try but epic fail. You guys should be glad the Amero failed. I hope Greece tells the EU to shove it. Iceland is doing better since they nationalized banks and got off the failed conservative train.
Maggie Thatcher? Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead.
Margaret Thatcher made Britain a less, not more, desirable place to do business
The ex-PM’s greatest mistake was her failure to recognize that social cohesion is crucial to long-term economic growth
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/10/inequality-margaret-thatcher-britain-desirable-business
Fascism is the system we have and it has failed the people.
Now I sure hope no one here is using that socialism called Social Security, or use that socialized medicine called medicare or the Veterans Hospital.
Please tell me that you practice that you preach. No one here uses that socialism do they?
The crash of 2008? Yep that is a real good system.
Bottom Line No one expects fox news viewers to understand why people are flocking to see Sanders.
Another 8,500 in WI last night! A state where a Tea Party Gov has destroyed the economy.
Bernie 2016! Win or Loose I am in. Why? Because if the banks are too big to fail, then they are too big to exist!
Time to get the money out and reverse the failed Reaganomics!
Good one, #4 Harold! And, unfortunately, all true.
Dewey it’s incredibly true, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
The left wing 80’s hit piece Guardian is hardly the place to find the accurate Thatcher record. Remember, in the 80’s left media had a monopoly and targeting both Thatcher and Reagan was a full time sport for radical left rags.
The Spectator reveals her record in a series of graphs. In this highly socialist nation it’s not surprising her record is mixed.
The radical left Obama record is infinitely worse. This administration is more fascist than any previous administration in my memory. Clinton’s good record was a result of his embracing conservative policy, “The era of big government is over!”
Conservatives don’t embrace fascism or communism…both are more at home in the left-wing as evidenced by the socialist nations in Europe that have tried both government ownership and government control of business.
Regarding social security and the participants here:
1. We were forced into the system and would be idiots not to take the small percentage of return we will realize on that money!
2. We have called for SS reforms and introduced legislation for reforms and those efforts were met by leftist political resistance and propaganda, “Pushing Granny off a cliff.”
The crash of 2008 was not a result of conservative policy. Left wing policy contributed greatly! Bush may have been President when the crash happened but the Democrats had been in the House, with control over the Ways and Means Committee, for two years. All of Bush’s efforts to get Congress to act to prevent the crash were ignored by Charlie Rangle and the leftists in Congress.
Sanders is one of the most socialist members of Congress. Socialism IS fascism/Marxism…get educated!
Wisconsin’s economy has improved according to the US Bureau of Bureau of Labor Statistics. When you consider the blunting effect of the US economy under the socialist policies of the Obama administration, red states like Wisconsin are doing quite well. f you want to see economic failure look to the sad state of cities and states run by Democrats…Detroit comes to mind immediately. New York is another and guess what NY has done lately to boost their economy? they lowered taxes and regulations to attract business. Being socialist this incentive plan was only offered for ten years and only to new business. They know what works but refuse to give up the power and control that leftist policy affords them.
Dewey you are truly ignorant! You rail against fascism and then support one of the most fascist/Marxist thinkers, Sanders, in Congress. No wonder you dis the Tea Party and Fox News, you haven’t a clue about even the most basic elements of economics or politics.
“Socialism IS fascism/Marxism…get educated!”
I have no idea how anyone could make such a statement and not immediately keel over from an irony overdose. You just conflated three different political ideologies, stated that they were all the same thing, and told someone else to “get educated” despite that your statement would get you flunked out of any halfway decent political science class in the country.
That’s right, Chris, you don’t have any idea.
That’s because you don’t appreciate the benefits of free markets and the freedom from oppressive socialist/ Marxist/fascists/Monarchist governments that our Constitution spelled out very clearly for us as an alternative. It’s because you can’t see that no matter which of these systems one lives under, oppression and unsustainable debt are the result. It’s
because you believe that socialism works and just needs to be led by ______ fill in the blank o make it work. It’s because you though Obama was that guy back in 2008 but he’s the best example to show you that these different forms of government are all hacked from the same totalitarian cloth:
1. Obama has taken control of banks, GM, healthcare and more. This is fascism.
2. Obama wants single payer and would adopt it in a heart beat. This is communism.
3. Obama’s policies have led to massive dependence on government…this is socialism.
4. Obama has acted like a king defying or writing immigration and environmental law without going through congress…the behavior of kings.
Nuance escapes you! Transformation over time befuddles you! You just don’t/won’t get it! You refuse to think and are stuck in the liberal playbook…a book filled with the ideas expressed in socialist, fascist, communist, and monarchal systems.
You on the left stand in a pot of oppressive stew and deny what’s cooking!
At #2 RHT447, I hear the national sport is tax evasion!
People aren’t stupid! When freebies are offered they accept them but nobody wants or expects to pick up the tab. They powers that be manage to push the chickens that will come home to roost into the future. Greece has met it’s future.
Is it surprising that the Greek people evade paying taxes when the rates are so high and the programs so expensive?
Tina: “2. Obama wants single payer and would adopt it in a heart beat. This is communism.”
Tina, do you believe that Israel–which has single payer–is a communist country?
If so, what do you believe should be done to stop communism from spreading out of Israel into other countries?
Back to the topic of the post:
America is nothing like Greece, and speculation that America will suffer Greece’s fate is simply fearmongering.
Right-leaning libertarian Megan McArdle writes:
“The first thing to note about Greece is that it has a lot of problems, many of which America simply doesn’t, and won’t for the foreseeable future. Let’s list them in order to get a sense of what I am talking about:
Small, underdeveloped economy
Long history of default and financial mismanagement that, among other things, made lenders charge them high interest rates to borrow
Broad corruption
Inability to collect the taxes that are levied, both because of the aforementioned corruption, and because Greece does not have a strong civic tradition of tax compliance
Attempting to fix 1 and 2 by adopting an outside currency that hurt exports and left the nation with a monetary policy inappropriate to its business cycle, unable to continue its long tradition of inflating its way out of fiscal and economic problems, and vulnerable to massive capital flight if things fell apart
An unsustainable pension system
Massively unsustainable borrowing to deal with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
The worst financial crisis in living memory hitting just as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 came to a head
Now, which of these problems does the United States have? Arguably both 6 and 7, though Greece had the extra-strength, prescription-only, highly addictive kind of pensions and borrowing, and the U.S. is just on baby aspirin.
I solidly believe that American policy as it currently stands creates a number of very worrying structural problems that need to be fixed now with some moderate pain, instead of fixed later with quite a bit of agony. This is not the same thing as believing that America is substantially like Greece. Call me back when the retirement age is reduced to 55 and our economy is reduced to tourism and olive trees…”
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-07-02/no-the-u-s-won-t-follow-greece-over-the-cliff
More here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/no-the-united-states-will-never-ever-turn-into-greece/273748/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/06/the-only-lesson-the-united-states-should-draw-from-greece/
#5 Tina: “Our politicians have been working against the best system for decades. It’s time to reclaim it. Greece should be a wake up call.”
I just finished Ted Cruz’s book, “A Time For Truth.” I liked him before I read his book and my opinion of him rose immensely after. His personal and professional life story is one that gives me hope that conservatives can take this country back from liberals and undo the damage they’ve done.
Believe me it is worth the read. You won’t be disappointed.
Here is just a small portion of his accomplishments noted in Wikipedia.
Texas Solicitor General[edit]:
“Appointed to the office of Solicitor General of Texas by Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott,[7][47] Cruz served in that position from 2003 to 2008.[10][30] The office had been established in 1999 to handle appeals involving the state, but Abbott hired Cruz with the idea that Cruz would take a “leadership role in the United States in articulating a vision of strict construction.” As Solicitor General, Cruz argued before the Supreme Court nine times, winning five cases and losing four.[44]
Cruz has authored 70 United States Supreme Court briefs and presented 43 oral arguments, including nine before the United States Supreme Court.[7][39][48] Cruz’s record of having argued before the Supreme Court nine times is more than any practicing lawyer in Texas or any current member of Congress.[49] Cruz has commented on his nine cases in front of the U.S. Supreme Court: “We ended up year after year arguing some of the biggest cases in the country. There was a degree of serendipity in that, but there was also a concerted effort to seek out and lead conservative fights.”[49]
In 2003, while Cruz was Texas solicitor general, the Texas Attorney General’s office declined to defend Texas’ sodomy law in Lawrence v. Texas, where the U.S. Supreme Court decided that state laws banning homosexual sex as illegal sodomy were unconstitutional.[50]
In the landmark case of District of Columbia v. Heller, Cruz drafted the amicus brief signed by the attorneys general of 31 states, which said that the D.C. handgun ban should be struck down as infringing upon the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.[48][51] Cruz also presented oral argument for the amici states in the companion case to Heller before the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.[48][52]
In addition to his success in Heller, Cruz successfully defended the constitutionality of the Ten Commandments monument on the Texas State Capitol grounds before the Fifth Circuit and the U.S. Supreme Court, winning 5–4 in Van Orden v. Perry.[10][39][48]
In 2004, Cruz was involved in the high-profile case, Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow,[10][39] in which he wrote a U.S. Supreme Court brief on behalf of all 50 states.[53] The Supreme Court upheld the position of Cruz’s brief.
Cruz served as lead counsel for the state and successfully defended the multiple litigation challenges to the 2003 Texas congressional redistricting plan in state and federal district courts and before the U.S. Supreme Court, which was decided 5–4 in his favor in League of United Latin American Citizens v. Perry.[10][54]
Cruz also successfully defended, in Medellin v. Texas, the State of Texas against an attempt to re-open the cases of 51 Mexican nationals, all of whom were convicted of murder in the United States and were on death row.[7][10][39][48] With the support of the George W. Bush Administration, the petitioners argued that the United States had violated the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations by failing to notify the convicted nationals of their opportunity to receive legal aid from the Mexican consulate.[44][55] They based their case on a decision of the International Court of Justice in the Avena case which ruled that by failing to allow access to the Mexican consulate, the US had breached its obligations under the Convention.[56] Texas won the case in a 6–3 decision, the Supreme Court holding that ICJ decisions were not binding in domestic law and that the President had no power to enforce them.[44][55]
Cruz has been named by American Lawyer magazine as one of the 50 Best Litigators under 45 in America,[47][57] by The National Law Journal as one of the 50 Most Influential Minority Lawyers in America,[58][59] and by Texas Lawyer as one of the 25 Greatest Texas Lawyers of the Past Quarter Century.[60][61]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Cruz#Texas_Solicitor_General
This article is a good read:
‘We underestimated their power’: Greek government insider lifts the lid on five months of ‘humiliation’ and ‘blackmail’
In this interview with Mediapart, a senior advisor to the Greek government, who has been at the heart of the past five months of negotiations between Athens and its international creditors, reveals the details of what resembles a game of liar’s dice over the fate of a nation that has been brought to its economic and social knees. His account gives a rare and disturbing insight into the process which has led up to this week’s make-or-break deadline for reaching a bailout deal between Greece and international lenders, without which the country faces crashing out of the euro and complete bankruptcy. He describes the extraordinary bullying of Greece’s radical-left government by the creditors, including Eurogroup president Jeroen Dijsselbloem’s direct threat to cause the collapse of the Hellenic banks if it failed to sign-up to a drastic austerity programme.
“We went to a war thinking we had the same weapons as them. We have underestimated their power […] It’s a power that enters the very fabric of society, the way people think. It controls and blackmails. We have very few levers. The European edifice is already Kafkaesque.”
http://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/international/080715/we-underestimated-their-power-greek-government-insider-lifts-lid-five-months-humiliation-and-blackm?onglet=full
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Nice to see you back Tina
But you are a bit off as Chris States.
Oaky Dewey I read the article. It had a lot of whining and drama, but not nearly enough facts. Like the fact that Greece is a sovereign nation. Do you know what that means? They did not get into financial trouble because of external forces, they were totally in control of debt mismanagement.
The Greek economy was already ripe for failure before the Great Recession of 2009. It just took a bit of a nudge from the recession and Greece false economy came crashing down. The misreporting of their debt to the EU did nothing to instill confidence in Greece’s ability to pay their debts! But, years ago they were warned and warned and yet they continued to operate on credit despite many red flags and a plethora of EU/EMF warnings they better to scale back on gov. spending. They didn’t. By 2012 Greece’s debt exceeded 323 billion Euros!
Another impediment to the inflow of investment money was the Greek trade deficit and budget deficit. That rose from below 5% of GDP (a measure of the size of the economy) in 1999 to peak around 15% of GDP in the 2008–2009 periods.
At the heart of Greeks woe’s was always a socialist government addicted to spending. They just couldn’t cut back on the red tape (control freaks) in order to stimulate new business, nor did they make any sensible efforts to collect back taxes which continued to mount at an exponential rate! Seems like everybody was cheating on their taxes; so many that the government was overwhelmed to do much about it. But, from the other side, the Greek people felt it was a necessity to avoid taxes, because the taxes were exorbitantly high. For the last couple of years their highest personal tax rate was 46%, but back in 2012 and 2011 it was 49%. Of course the wealthy found creative ways to shelter their income and who could blame them! This tax loss shifted more of the tax burden back to the people who didn’t have the same option. The high Greek corporate tax rate also did nothing to help attract business. Corporate taxes jumped from 20% up to 49% by 2012!
Dewey are you getting this? There is a bell curve here: The higher the taxes the more resistance there is to paying. The higher the taxes the less competitive business becomes. The less competitive business becomes the less people that get hired. Also trade imbalances mount…that’s never good.
Greece has been edging towards trouble for almost 50 years and they will not get out of it in a few years, sorry, but it doesn’t work that way when they have made such a concerted effort to posture their economy for failure. There is much to be undone, a lot of socialist to be kicked out of power and there will be a long period of pain for all their economic transgressions, but of course the socialists are going to blame it all on somebody else…they will claim they were victims. No, make that they are claiming to be victims. I got that from the article you referred me too. Well, too bad, this is their fault and their responsibility to fix it. Thankfully they have sympathetic people in the EU who will be trying their best to get them back on their feet. Nobody wants to see Greece default, this will hurt the Common Market.
You may think the United States could never be another Greece, but you look at the rate of debt we’re accumulating and the rise of socialism (they often go hand in hand) and its quite possible that many of the ills befalling Greece now could turn up here in a few years.
Oh My! Ted Cruz the anointed one!
Never can see this video of his father enough!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNa5w9js48s
“Dominionist doctrine and dogma, on the other hand, come from where?
They do not come from the Bible. You won’t find the dominionist agenda in the Old Testament.
You won’t find it in the New Testament either.
It is instead the creation of corrupt and power-hungry totalitarian-minded men and women who want control of our government and have invented a new religion based on Christianity to justify their claims.” Politicus
Cruz assisted in assembling the Bush legal team, devise strategy, and draft pleadings for filing with the Supreme Court of Florida and U.S. Supreme Court, the specific case being Bush v. Gore, during the 2000 Florida presidential recounts, leading to two successful decisions for the Bush team.
Cruz recruited future Chief Justice John Roberts and noted attorney Mike Carvin to the Bush legal team.
Bush v Gore, Yep that gave us the future to which we live.
Apparently an agreement has been reached that will kick the can down the road for three years. America has been doing the same regarding entitlement debt for decades. Cooking the books and artificial fixes are political tools to avoid making difficult choices.
Chris: “…do you believe that Israel–which has single payer–is a communist country?”
I believe they adopted a socialist healthcare system reflective of Marxism. From each according to his means to each according to his need. Control vested in the government rather than the people.
Please explain how I’m wrong.
Israel isn’t a very large nation, in fact it is very small. The Israeli’s have a history of service, integrity, and charity. Their healthcare system comes out of their charitable, service oriented nature more than an embrace of communism…kind of like the Mormons in the US who take care of their own.
I think that, as when Reagan was President and worked with Thatcher and the Pope and highlighted people who had overcome communist oppression, we should be embracing freedom, industry, and charity. These are the principles that made America and Americans thrive. Personal achievement and self sufficiency would eliminate many of today’s governmental budget and debt problems and should be encouraged.
America and freedom have been the envy of the world and we’re killing it by mimicking and adopting the methods of failing nations…INSANE!
Jack I know what that means, the article was just a window not a fact finding mission.
Bottom Line the EU is switching over to fascism like the rest of the world.
Where is the freedom from the banks? The point was there is bullying, corruption, and blackmail going on.
Take Germany a sovereign nation what happened when they were broke? Were their people pushed into failed Austerity? No they were bailed out. The EU is a scam.
The USA is going broke by wars where both sides are funded by these banks.
WW2 was the same. Even the original Bush family 1st million came from laundering money for the Nazi’s
Jack the Banks are running the world, creating crashes and bullying humans into submission.
Iceland told them to screw off, nationalized their banks and are way better off and freer now.
Where is my freedom from the world banking system? WHere is my liberty to be able to borrow from another banking system?
Be careful China and Russia may take over with their new banking system the world is sick of the bank system corruption and taxpayers on the hook to bail them out which is now US law. Signed by Obama and pushed by GOP.
Obama is a corporatist like the GOP they work together with the banks,
Dewey there’s a big hole in your argument. If the banks are running the world then why is Greece bankrupt? Different banks running Greece? The truth is Greece was running Greece and they made bad economic decisions for decades and now those bad decisions have come home to roost. I know this doesn’t fit your current narrative, but if you employ just a smidgeon of common sense you’ll really broaden your thinking.